What could we get for Jones?

[CubColtPacer]

But we're not talking about last year's offseason anymore.

 

Looking at this offseason, Jones is acceptable in RF if the team upgrades elsewhere. Adding Drew in CF, retaining Ramirez, and targeting and signing 2 FA/posted pitchers for the rotation makes Jones acceptable.

 

The only reason to move Jones is if the team gets a good deal for an upgrade. But there are not many available upgrades on the market. His pricetage is very reasonable, and he gives you average or better production.

 

Average production at above average cost, not good. And he's just as likely to be below average as above. Jones is only acceptable in RF if they have massive improvements elsewhere.

 

Jones is not above average cost. His contract, by current market, is a bargain. The Cubs are not going to field an all-star at every position, so we agree that assuming upgrades elsewhere, Jones is acceptable.

 

I do find it highly ironic that Hendry got killed for not pursuing Giles on this board, and Jones dwarfed Giles production in 2006, in terms of slugging and OPS.

 

Giles OPS+ 105

Jones OPS+ 107

 

I find it highly amusing how much you love Jim Hendry screwing up the Cubs.

 

Jones is above average cost. You can't compare him only to free agents, that's absurd. He's not competing only against free agents. Smart teams find ways to get production above cost. Stupid teams spend big on mediocrity.

 

Sure we can compare him to other free agents. When looking at the average pitchers on the market, do teams look at the average value of all the pitchers, or the average market value of that particular pitcher? For example, Miguel Batista. Under your system of comparing him to every pitcher, he should only be worth 1-2 million. On the market, the fair deal is probably around 5. Is it overpaying if somebody gives him 5?

Jones was signed below market value for his production last year. If he returns to previous years, then his production will be about market value. He's not a great strength of this team, but he's not a huge weakness either.

[nilodnayr]

Mid Grade Prospects.

He had the 3rd best OPS for NL RFs. Hit .285 with 27 homeruns and is under contract for 9M for the next two years. Not to say that I like him or anything, but thats the sale I make to anyone interested. I'd love to send him to the Nats and get Kearns, Church, and Vidro in return. Not really sure if theres any other teams out there that would be interested. Possibly the Dodgers, Giants, Rangers.

I don't think the Nationals would give up young talent for a vet like Jones. Not exactly what a team in rebuilding mode would do.

 

1) The Nationals do not value Church as evidenced by the fact that he his third on the CF depth chart behind Alex Escobar and Nook Logan, both of whom are also young and cheap.

 

2) They are desperate to move Vidro and the 16M he is owed.

 

3) Kearns has 2 more arbi years left in which his salary will be equal to Jones. He has made it clear he is miserable in DC and by conventional baseball metrics is an inferior player to Jones. Even if they retain him for the next two years he is going to bolt when he hits FA.

[goonys evil twin]

Sure we can compare him to other free agents.

 

You can compared him to other free agents. It's just stupid to only compare him to free agents. You have to compare him to everybody. He's makes more than the average players but does not produce more than the average player.

[CubColtPacer]

Sure we can compare him to other free agents.

 

You can compared him to other free agents. It's just stupid to only compare him to free agents. You have to compare him to everybody. He's makes more than the average players but does not produce more than the average player.

 

Well, then you can compare him to all the players (although the average salary for outfielders overall is still 4.4 million, so Jones is just slightly above average contract) but that means the Cubs cannot sign any second-tier pitchers this year, because they are average and they are going to sign for more than 3.2 million. They will make more than the average starter, but they won't produce more than the average starter also. That is a perfectly valid comparison, since pretty much all of the second-tier pitchers are about the same level to average as Jones.

 

Edit: Excuse me, that's old figures (2002). The starting pitcher number has probably gone up, but the number for right fielders has probably gone up past 5 million now-so Jones is probably average salary at this point.

[Backtobanks]

Sure we can compare him to other free agents.

 

You can compared him to other free agents. It's just stupid to only compare him to free agents. You have to compare him to everybody. He's makes more than the average players but does not produce more than the average player.

 

You can't compare him to everybody in salary. "Everybody" includes a ton of players that are rookies making the league minimum, benchwarmers that make a million or less, and many other pre-arbitration young players that are under salary control by their teams. If you want to compare salaries, compare him to players who are not rookies or pre-arbitration AND STARTING ON A REGULAR BASIS. I would guess that his salary is probably below or in-line with those players.

[BigbadB]

But, Jacque shouldn't be starting on a regular basis. That's where the difference is, IMO. Yes, he played everyday, but he shouldn't play everyday. He has next to no value against left handed pitching.

 

This decreases his overall value. If you have to pay someone else to play the position against left handed pitching, how much he makes to be a part time player makes him overpriced for the production he provides.

[TheDude]

But we're not talking about last year's offseason anymore.

 

Looking at this offseason, Jones is acceptable in RF if the team upgrades elsewhere. Adding Drew in CF, retaining Ramirez, and targeting and signing 2 FA/posted pitchers for the rotation makes Jones acceptable.

 

The only reason to move Jones is if the team gets a good deal for an upgrade. But there are not many available upgrades on the market. His pricetage is very reasonable, and he gives you average or better production.

 

Average production at above average cost, not good. And he's just as likely to be below average as above. Jones is only acceptable in RF if they have massive improvements elsewhere.

 

Jones is not above average cost. His contract, by current market, is a bargain. The Cubs are not going to field an all-star at every position, so we agree that assuming upgrades elsewhere, Jones is acceptable.

 

I do find it highly ironic that Hendry got killed for not pursuing Giles on this board, and Jones dwarfed Giles production in 2006, in terms of slugging and OPS.

 

Giles OPS+ 105

Jones OPS+ 107

 

I find it highly amusing how much you love Jim Hendry screwing up the Cubs.

 

Jones is above average cost. You can't compare him only to free agents, that's absurd. He's not competing only against free agents. Smart teams find ways to get production above cost. Stupid teams spend big on mediocrity.

 

So if signing Jones at his production and salary 'screwed up the Cubs', what would signing Giles at his production and salary have equated to? Giles makes nearly twice as much as Jones, for less production. Signing Giles could have been a much bigger bust, if you assume similar production.

 

I don't love Jim Hendry. I just don't pile on his every move as bad or mediocre. I think the Jones signing was questionable at the time, and has turned out to be a pleasant surprise, because the team got plus production out of him last year for his current rate.

 

Whether you think he is overpaid or not doesn't change the fact that the market dictates him as a value. If the Cubs can bring in good value by selling high on Jones, then great. If Jones is in RF next year, and the team makes upgrades as needed elsewhere, then great.