Cubs Offense

[wastra]

Why do you have more faith in Theriot than you do in Marshall/Ryu/Guzman/Mateo/Marmol?

 

 

While I don't necessarily disagree with most of your post, or the main gist of it, I think you're missing an important consideration in the line above.

 

I have more faith that Theriot could provide adequate play at 2b NEXT YEAR than I do in many of our young pitchers providing adequate play as starters NEXT YEAR. But I have more faith that one or more of those young pitchers will provide above average play as starters a couple years down the road than I do that Theriot will ever be more than just adequate.

 

Plus, with our injury history, it's probably a certainty that there will be plenty opportunities to get starts at the major league level next year for these guys even if they begin the year in AAA.

 

Yet I don't think Padilla is necessarilly the best option.

 

But the issue becomes if Padilla or someone like him is brought in, that pitcher will be here for three years in all liklihood. If Zambrano is signed long term, and Prior works out his issues, then a number of those pitchers will have to be let go. If they aren't able to establish value in the majors, many will be let go cheaply to realize that possible ceiling somewhere other than Chicago.

 

I'm willing to gamble that one of a possible five can become valuable next season more so than I'm able to gamble that Theriot will become something than no one has ever really projected him to be.

 

 

I'm less worries about blocking a pitcher than I am not fielding a good staff next year. One thing about pitchers- if they're halfway decent, you can unload them fairly easily as long as you don't sign them to outrageous contracts. I have no problem with overstocking our staff, and then making deals later to make room for young guys who've shown their ready when the time comes. I've seen far too many other teams sign free agents ahead of major prospects, and have little trouble unloading them to make room.

 

Our issue is signing crappy guys like Jones to contracts higher than we should be, and thus destroying their marketability. You sign a decent pitcher for 3 years at a salary commesurate with how he produces (instead of a Rusch-like signing), and you can find takers if Guzman suddenly finds his control, for example, and starts dominating.

[jmajew]

 

The clear difference between both of us is the value of Theriot. I really think he will be a David Eckstein type of player, hopefully with a higher OBP.

 

I think our arms have too much value on the trade market right now. I'd be more than willing to trade 3 of Marshall/Ryu/Guzman/Mateo/Marmol for a CF. Either Vernon Wells or Andruw Jones. I would even throw in Pie for one of them, preferably Wells since he is only 27. Heck we could then go sign Schmidt.

 

I guess I just don't like Soriano. I don't think he is a good fit and I think he will make way too much. My bet is we could sign Wells if we trade for him to a 5/55 or 5/60 type of deal. If we get wells for 11 mil a year I think it would be more likely we could get schmidt and Padilla still.

 

Theriot, Barrett, DLee, Ramirez, Wells, Jones/Platoon, Murton, Izturis looks good to me. Zambrano, Schmidt, Hill, Padilla, Prior also looks good.

 

What gives you the impression that Theriot can perform at an Eckstien level?

 

Eckstein in college and with the exception of one half season in the minors posted OBP in excess of 400.

 

Theriot has not come close to that. Why do you think Theriot projects to have those numbers other than the fact he's scrappy and white like Eckstein?

 

The cost of your team if you get Wells or Jones will greatly exceed mine. If I could get Wells or Jones, I would as well. I still wouldn't get Padilla and if I had those, I'd likely pursue Durham which would still be a better option than Theriot.

 

I like Ryan. As an LSU fan, I hope he will suceed as a Cub, but there's nothing in his history that projects to anything like what Eckstein has done. Your hopes for Theriot are based on a measley 100 AB's.

 

It's pie-in-the-sky thinking. Cedeno has just as much liklihood of becoming Tejada as Theriot has of becoming Eckstein.

 

Honestly, I think it because certain people develop at different rates than others. I think Theriot is just now figuring it out. I don't think he can keep up his 412 OBP but I definitely think he can keep up his 350 OBP. Like he has had every year in the minors since his first two. If you don't give the kid a chance you will never know what he can do. He has played well this past month so he deserves the chance just like Cedeno did last year. However, the difference being Cedeno only had one good year in the minors where Theriot has had two and Theriot has always shown good plate discipline.

 

I also don't understand the fascination with us adding more power to the Lineup. Adding a healthy Derrek Lee and getting a platoon for Jones should give us more than enough pop in the middle of the order. You can expect the 3-4-5 all to give you atleast 30 homeruns. You can expect Barrett to hit his 15 and Murton to hit between 15-20. We have enough power. Our team lacks OBP and Soriano besides this year does not provide that.

[fromthestretch]

Cedeno has just as much liklihood of becoming Tejada as Theriot has of becoming Eckstein.

 

While I agree with your offseason strategy, I can't agree with the above statement. I think it's highly more likely that Theriot could match or even exceed Eckstein's 2006 line of .289/.348/.328 than it is that Cedeno could even come close to Tejada's production.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Cedeno has just as much liklihood of becoming Tejada as Theriot has of becoming Eckstein.

 

While I agree with your offseason strategy, I can't agree with the above statement. I think it's highly more likely that Theriot could match or even exceed Eckstein's 2006 line of .289/.348/.328 than it is that Cedeno could even come close to Tejada's production.

 

Perhaps I was using some hyperbole there.

[mg420]

 

The clear difference between both of us is the value of Theriot. I really think he will be a David Eckstein type of player, hopefully with a higher OBP.

 

I think our arms have too much value on the trade market right now. I'd be more than willing to trade 3 of Marshall/Ryu/Guzman/Mateo/Marmol for a CF. Either Vernon Wells or Andruw Jones. I would even throw in Pie for one of them, preferably Wells since he is only 27. Heck we could then go sign Schmidt.

 

I guess I just don't like Soriano. I don't think he is a good fit and I think he will make way too much. My bet is we could sign Wells if we trade for him to a 5/55 or 5/60 type of deal. If we get wells for 11 mil a year I think it would be more likely we could get schmidt and Padilla still.

 

Theriot, Barrett, DLee, Ramirez, Wells, Jones/Platoon, Murton, Izturis looks good to me. Zambrano, Schmidt, Hill, Padilla, Prior also looks good.

 

What gives you the impression that Theriot can perform at an Eckstien level?

 

Eckstein in college and with the exception of one half season in the minors posted OBP in excess of 400.

 

Theriot has not come close to that. Why do you think Theriot projects to have those numbers other than the fact he's scrappy and white like Eckstein?

 

The cost of your team if you get Wells or Jones will greatly exceed mine. If I could get Wells or Jones, I would as well. I still wouldn't get Padilla and if I had those, I'd likely pursue Durham which would still be a better option than Theriot.

 

I like Ryan. As an LSU fan, I hope he will suceed as a Cub, but there's nothing in his history that projects to anything like what Eckstein has done. Your hopes for Theriot are based on a measley 100 AB's.

 

It's pie-in-the-sky thinking. Cedeno has just as much liklihood of becoming Tejada as Theriot has of becoming Eckstein.

 

this has to be one of if not the silliest things i've seen on this board. it translates to theriot has as much chance to post an ops of .707 as cedeno does of posting a .821.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

The clear difference between both of us is the value of Theriot. I really think he will be a David Eckstein type of player, hopefully with a higher OBP.

 

I think our arms have too much value on the trade market right now. I'd be more than willing to trade 3 of Marshall/Ryu/Guzman/Mateo/Marmol for a CF. Either Vernon Wells or Andruw Jones. I would even throw in Pie for one of them, preferably Wells since he is only 27. Heck we could then go sign Schmidt.

 

I guess I just don't like Soriano. I don't think he is a good fit and I think he will make way too much. My bet is we could sign Wells if we trade for him to a 5/55 or 5/60 type of deal. If we get wells for 11 mil a year I think it would be more likely we could get schmidt and Padilla still.

 

Theriot, Barrett, DLee, Ramirez, Wells, Jones/Platoon, Murton, Izturis looks good to me. Zambrano, Schmidt, Hill, Padilla, Prior also looks good.

 

What gives you the impression that Theriot can perform at an Eckstien level?

 

Eckstein in college and with the exception of one half season in the minors posted OBP in excess of 400.

 

Theriot has not come close to that. Why do you think Theriot projects to have those numbers other than the fact he's scrappy and white like Eckstein?

 

The cost of your team if you get Wells or Jones will greatly exceed mine. If I could get Wells or Jones, I would as well. I still wouldn't get Padilla and if I had those, I'd likely pursue Durham which would still be a better option than Theriot.

 

I like Ryan. As an LSU fan, I hope he will suceed as a Cub, but there's nothing in his history that projects to anything like what Eckstein has done. Your hopes for Theriot are based on a measley 100 AB's.

 

It's pie-in-the-sky thinking. Cedeno has just as much liklihood of becoming Tejada as Theriot has of becoming Eckstein.

 

Honestly, I think it because certain people develop at different rates than others. I think Theriot is just now figuring it out. I don't think he can keep up his 412 OBP but I definitely think he can keep up his 350 OBP. Like he has had every year in the minors since his first two. If you don't give the kid a chance you will never know what he can do. He has played well this past month so he deserves the chance just like Cedeno did last year. However, the difference being Cedeno only had one good year in the minors where Theriot has had two and Theriot has always shown good plate discipline.

 

I also don't understand the fascination with us adding more power to the Lineup. Adding a healthy Derrek Lee and getting a platoon for Jones should give us more than enough pop in the middle of the order. You can expect the 3-4-5 all to give you atleast 30 homeruns. You can expect Barrett to hit his 15 and Murton to hit between 15-20. We have enough power. Our team lacks OBP and Soriano besides this year does not provide that.

 

I'm not going to debate that Theriot hasn't shown nice plate discipline. He's also a lot older than Cedeno. You're exactly right in that without the chance, we'll never know. But what if we give him the chance, and he posts a 260/320/335 line. Then say goodby to contention in 2007 because with the other pieces we have in place, the line-up cannot sustain that level of production. Unlike other teams or other situations, the Cubs are really not in a position to gamble with Theriot at second, especially when there are better options available. If we were stronger in other spots, it might be prudent. If Theriot had a higher ceiling and a higher level of performance in the minors, maybe. But he doesn't.

 

Our team doesn't just lack OBP, it lacks both OBP and SLG.

 

This team needs one more slugger. It's not just important to get on base, and believe me, I believe that is important, but it is also important to have some feared hitters that can drive the ball with authority. If not, we will still have to produce too many baserunners to be effieciently scoring runs.

 

Unless we get that slugger in left by moving Murton or in CF, we'll need to get it at second base or by trading for it at SS. Since I don't see Hendry moving Izturis, and I think trading for Jones from Atlanta is ify, and I value Murton's projections over Theriot, second is the ideal place to get that missing component of the line-up.

 

I really think what is happening here is that Theriot is a likeable player. He hustles, he's scrappy, and he's all the things we like in a ballplayer. He's also a product of our system. We all would want the chance if in his shoes, so we root for him. That's all good. But when baseball teams make decisions based on sappy sentimentality, more times than not, they fail.

 

Soriano may represent all that is bad in the game. But his bat makes the most sense for our line-up in 2007. Does it suck to be Theriot in that situation? Yes, it does. I wish it weren't so, but I want the Cubs to win more than I want what's best for The Riot.

[jmajew]

 

The clear difference between both of us is the value of Theriot. I really think he will be a David Eckstein type of player, hopefully with a higher OBP.

 

I think our arms have too much value on the trade market right now. I'd be more than willing to trade 3 of Marshall/Ryu/Guzman/Mateo/Marmol for a CF. Either Vernon Wells or Andruw Jones. I would even throw in Pie for one of them, preferably Wells since he is only 27. Heck we could then go sign Schmidt.

 

I guess I just don't like Soriano. I don't think he is a good fit and I think he will make way too much. My bet is we could sign Wells if we trade for him to a 5/55 or 5/60 type of deal. If we get wells for 11 mil a year I think it would be more likely we could get schmidt and Padilla still.

 

Theriot, Barrett, DLee, Ramirez, Wells, Jones/Platoon, Murton, Izturis looks good to me. Zambrano, Schmidt, Hill, Padilla, Prior also looks good.

 

What gives you the impression that Theriot can perform at an Eckstien level?

 

Eckstein in college and with the exception of one half season in the minors posted OBP in excess of 400.

 

Theriot has not come close to that. Why do you think Theriot projects to have those numbers other than the fact he's scrappy and white like Eckstein?

 

The cost of your team if you get Wells or Jones will greatly exceed mine. If I could get Wells or Jones, I would as well. I still wouldn't get Padilla and if I had those, I'd likely pursue Durham which would still be a better option than Theriot.

 

I like Ryan. As an LSU fan, I hope he will suceed as a Cub, but there's nothing in his history that projects to anything like what Eckstein has done. Your hopes for Theriot are based on a measley 100 AB's.

 

It's pie-in-the-sky thinking. Cedeno has just as much liklihood of becoming Tejada as Theriot has of becoming Eckstein.

 

Honestly, I think it because certain people develop at different rates than others. I think Theriot is just now figuring it out. I don't think he can keep up his 412 OBP but I definitely think he can keep up his 350 OBP. Like he has had every year in the minors since his first two. If you don't give the kid a chance you will never know what he can do. He has played well this past month so he deserves the chance just like Cedeno did last year. However, the difference being Cedeno only had one good year in the minors where Theriot has had two and Theriot has always shown good plate discipline.

 

I also don't understand the fascination with us adding more power to the Lineup. Adding a healthy Derrek Lee and getting a platoon for Jones should give us more than enough pop in the middle of the order. You can expect the 3-4-5 all to give you atleast 30 homeruns. You can expect Barrett to hit his 15 and Murton to hit between 15-20. We have enough power. Our team lacks OBP and Soriano besides this year does not provide that.

 

I'm not going to debate that Theriot hasn't shown nice plate discipline. He's also a lot older than Cedeno. You're exactly right in that without the chance, we'll never know. But what if we give him the chance, and he posts a 260/320/335 line. Then say goodby to contention in 2007 because with the other pieces we have in place, the line-up cannot sustain that level of production. Unlike other teams or other situations, the Cubs are really not in a position to gamble with Theriot at second, especially when there are better options available. If we were stronger in other spots, it might be prudent. If Theriot had a higher ceiling and a higher level of performance in the minors, maybe. But he doesn't.

 

Our team doesn't just lack OBP, it lacks both OBP and SLG.

 

This team needs one more slugger. It's not just important to get on base, and believe me, I believe that is important, but it is also important to have some feared hitters that can drive the ball with authority. If not, we will still have to produce too many baserunners to be effieciently scoring runs.

 

Unless we get that slugger in left by moving Murton or in CF, we'll need to get it at second base or by trading for it at SS. Since I don't see Hendry moving Izturis, and I think trading for Jones from Atlanta is ify, and I value Murton's projections over Theriot, second is the ideal place to get that missing component of the line-up.

 

I really think what is happening here is that Theriot is a likeable player. He hustles, he's scrappy, and he's all the things we like in a ballplayer. He's also a product of our system. We all would want the chance if in his shoes, so we root for him. That's all good. But when baseball teams make decisions based on sappy sentimentality, more times than not, they fail.

 

Soriano may represent all that is bad in the game. But his bat makes the most sense for our line-up in 2007. Does it suck to be Theriot in that situation? Yes, it does. I wish it weren't so, but I want the Cubs to win more than I want what's best for The Riot.

 

Only if there was some way to get Hendry to dump Izturis and put Theriot at SS.

[Laura]

Re: Theriot

 

I like Theriot.

 

I think ideally he can make a nice Craig Counsell-type career for himself.

 

In fact, assuming he can play shortstop, I wouldn't be against him playing short ahead of Cesar Izturis, which we know has no chance in hell of happening.

 

Therefore, I'm all for him making the roster as a back-up and assuming the Neifi role.

 

Good organizations, while they might find a place for an organizational soldier like Theriot, do not confuse a 26 year old minor league lifer (in relative terms) with a legitimate prospect based on a 100 at-bat late season call-up.

 

Seconded.

 

Aside from 22 ABs at age 25, Freel was organization filler until age 27.

 

Given the types (and quantities) of 25th-guy-types that the Cubs have featured over the past few years (Macias, Neifi, Ordonez, Harris), they could do worse than let Theriot compete for the sub job. I wouldn't want to enter the season with either him or Cedeno slotted for a starting role, but I'd give both the chance to compete for a 25-man spot. If someone breaks out and has a great season, these things have a way of working themselves out.