Euqal or Fewer Hits than Runs - stat lookup?

[baseball7897]

Wins are about as pointless a measure of a pitcher's performance as any stat available.

 

And thats YOUR opinion. I disagree with that. Is that ok?

Yes it is OK, but it's not just his opinion. It's the opinion of a lot of knowledgeable basefall fans. Wins are meaningless because they relate to a team's offense as much (if not more) than the pitcher. Pitcher A could stink up the joint yet win 9-8, while Pitcher B could pitch a masterpiece but lose 1-0 on an unearned run. Without question Pitcher B would have pitched the better game, yet he'd have a loss while Pitcher A would have a win.

 

Well said. Look at a game earlier this year when Reyes threw a one-hitter against the Sox and still got the loss. He made one bad pitch in a game where he was very dominant. Wins are not a very good stat to measure a pitcher's performance because of the exact reason that you mentioned.

 

Randy Johnson, Chris Capuano, and Carlos Zambrano each won alot of games on poor teams. You can judge a pitcher by the amount of wins he has.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Wins are about as pointless a measure of a pitcher's performance as any stat available.

 

And thats YOUR opinion. I disagree with that. Is that ok?

 

If you want to be wrong, sure.

 

Im not wrong, and you're not right either. Depends on how a person judges a pitcher. I judge a pitcher by Wins, IP, BAA, WHIP, and the number of starts(30-35).

 

And I'll take Pitching Runs Created along with date of birth, height, weight, and eye color and would still have a better idea who was the better pitcher.

 

I know more about pitching than you do. So I highly doubt you could judge a pitcher better than me.

 

You equate your knowledge with a talent to throw certain pitches. You really don't know whether you know more about it or not.

 

Like many of your statements, this one also is based on faulty knowledge.

 

It doesn't take the ability to do a task to evaluate how to do such a task.

 

I'm pretty sure I can judge a pitcher's performance better than you if you are using wins as one of your primary measures of performance.

[baseball7897]

 

You would be filing for bankruptcy then. Watching a pitcher pitch plays in how you judge him. And anyone could look up a pitchers stats to judge him.

 

And, believe it or not, Vance has watched pitchers play! And even though he was never a mediocre high school baseball player, he still has an ability to look at a pitcher and see what his stuff looks like, if his mechanics are good, what the batters look like while facing them, how much fortitude the pitcher has, how the defense is relaxed while playing behind him, and all that jazz! Anyone can watch a pitcher and see if he's good or not!

 

Since you said anyone can judge a pitcher by how good his mechanics are. I want to know what you think, or anyone else thinks Ben Sheets is doing wrong in this photo?

 

 

 

 

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Ben-Sheets---2005-Pitching-Action-Photograph-C12044492.jpeg

[imb]

i really want to sit back and enjoy this thread.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Wins are about as pointless a measure of a pitcher's performance as any stat available.

 

And thats YOUR opinion. I disagree with that. Is that ok?

 

If you want to be wrong, sure.

 

Im not wrong, and you're not right either. Depends on how a person judges a pitcher. I judge a pitcher by Wins, IP, BAA, WHIP, and the number of starts(30-35).

 

And I'll take Pitching Runs Created along with date of birth, height, weight, and eye color and would still have a better idea who was the better pitcher.

 

I know more about pitching than you do. So I highly doubt you could judge a pitcher better than me.

 

I know more about internet technologies, message boards, etc. than you. So I really think you should stop posting.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

[baseball7897]

Wins are about as pointless a measure of a pitcher's performance as any stat available.

 

And thats YOUR opinion. I disagree with that. Is that ok?

 

If you want to be wrong, sure.

 

Im not wrong, and you're not right either. Depends on how a person judges a pitcher. I judge a pitcher by Wins, IP, BAA, WHIP, and the number of starts(30-35).

 

And I'll take Pitching Runs Created along with date of birth, height, weight, and eye color and would still have a better idea who was the better pitcher.

 

I know more about pitching than you do. So I highly doubt you could judge a pitcher better than me.

 

I know more about internet technologies, message boards, etc. than you. So I really think you should stop posting.

 

What the hell are you talking about?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Wins are about as pointless a measure of a pitcher's performance as any stat available.

 

And thats YOUR opinion. I disagree with that. Is that ok?

 

If you want to be wrong, sure.

 

Im not wrong, and you're not right either. Depends on how a person judges a pitcher. I judge a pitcher by Wins, IP, BAA, WHIP, and the number of starts(30-35).

 

And I'll take Pitching Runs Created along with date of birth, height, weight, and eye color and would still have a better idea who was the better pitcher.

 

I know more about pitching than you do. So I highly doubt you could judge a pitcher better than me.

 

I know more about internet technologies, message boards, etc. than you. So I really think you should stop posting.

 

What the hell are you talking about?

 

It was about your holier than thou, I know more than you do crap. It's tired, it really shows your immaturity, and it definitely needs to stop. Vance is allowed to have an opinion on pitching even though he isn't one (and he is correct by the way), and you shouldn't act so arrogant in your defense of your opinion. You DON'T know more about pitching than hundreds if not thousands of people who share the same opinion that Vance has.

 

Once again, most of us played baseball. Many of us played college ball, some probably even professionally. A lot of us have been playing and coaching successfully for a lot longer than you have been alive. Get off the high horse and defend your opinions with facts.

[baseball7897]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

[rocket]

since anyone can look at a stat book, someone who went 15-8 must have had an era below 5, a whip below 1.60, and had a baa less than .290, right? especially since he pitched over 200 innings.

[Guest]

while you may know more about pitching, you know far less about judging a pitcher than 90 percent of the people here. and you can get over the fact that you play baseball - so does or did just about everyone here. that is a very weak fall back argument.

 

you can believe whatever you want, but if you want people to respect your opinion, you need to back it up with a little better logic than I know more about pitching (based on what?).

Edited September 16, 2006 by stitchface

[rocket]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

and that's great. can you look at that picture and see if he's a good pitcher or not?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

So I was right, cool. I haven't pitched in 6 years. What do you think about Sheets in 2004?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

So, are you saying that you know more about pitching than Ben Sheets?

[Guest]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

and that's great. can you look at that picture and see if he's a good pitcher or not?

 

I can. from the picture, its clear that the pitcher is ben sheets. looking at his career statistics, I can see that he is a very effective pitcher. unfortunately, his value is limited by frequent injuries.

[baseball7897]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

So, are you saying that you know more about pitching than Ben Sheets?

 

Sheets knows more about how to pitch to batters than I do. Im sure Sheets knows what he is doing wrong. It is really hard though to change a pitchers mechanics. Specially considering Sheets has been pitching that way his whole life.

Im pretty educated on the pitching side. So for you guys who think im just a pitcher who knows how to throw a curveball, and dosent know anything about pitching, you are false.

[baseball7897]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

So I was right, cool. I haven't pitched in 6 years. What do you think about Sheets in 2004?

 

Sheets in 04 was one of the better pitchers in the league. He played on a poor Brewers team, which caused his w-l record to be worse than it should of been.

 

I already said there are the exceptions when using wins to judge a pitcher. But, I also said pitchers like Zambrano, Capuano, Johnson had alot of wins on poor teams. Which indicates how good they are by their pitching record.

[rocket]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

So, are you saying that you know more about pitching than Ben Sheets?

 

Sheets knows more about how to pitch to batters than I do. Im sure Sheets knows what he is doing wrong. It is really hard though to change a pitchers mechanics. Specially considering Sheets has been pitching that way his whole life.

Im pretty educated on the pitching side. So for you guys who think im just a pitcher who knows how to throw a curveball, and dosent know anything about pitching, you are false.

 

No one said you don't know anything about pitching. You probably know more about the actual art of pitching than 90% of posters. No one is denying that.

 

But most people here have a better grasp of what pitching statistics are important and show the true value of a pitcher. Sorry.

 

Just because someone has baseball talent does not necessarily mean they are a better judge of a player's ability.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I've never doubted you know how to pitch. I'm talking more along the lines of evaluating a pitcher's performance.

 

Back to that, wins are a poor metric of doing that.

[rocket]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

So I was right, cool. I haven't pitched in 6 years. What do you think about Sheets in 2004?

 

Sheets in 04 was one of the better pitchers in the league. He played on a poor Brewers team, which caused his w-l record to be worse than it should of been.

 

I already said there are the exceptions when using wins to judge a pitcher. But, I also said pitchers like Zambrano, Capuano, Johnson had alot of wins on poor teams. Which indicates how good they are by their pitching record.

 

Their whip, k rate, and era are even better indicators. A better pitcher will more likely get more wins, but those other stats correlate MUCH higher to a pitcher's true ability.

[Guest]

I already said there are the exceptions when using wins to judge a pitcher. But, I also said pitchers like Zambrano, Capuano, Johnson had alot of wins on poor teams. Which indicates how good they are by their pitching record.

 

which is why wins add virtually nothing to the evaluation of a pitcher's performance.

[baseball7897]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

So, are you saying that you know more about pitching than Ben Sheets?

 

Sheets knows more about how to pitch to batters than I do. Im sure Sheets knows what he is doing wrong. It is really hard though to change a pitchers mechanics. Specially considering Sheets has been pitching that way his whole life.

Im pretty educated on the pitching side. So for you guys who think im just a pitcher who knows how to throw a curveball, and dosent know anything about pitching, you are false.

 

No one said you don't know anything about pitching. You probably know more about the actual art of pitching than 90% of posters. No one is denying that.

 

But most people here have a better grasp of what pitching statistics are important and show the true value of a pitcher. Sorry.

Just because someone has baseball talent does not necessarily mean they are a better judge of a player's ability.

 

Thats the problem. I do know what pitching stas are important. Just because I use an extra stat like wins to judge a pitcher, dosent mean I dont know what stats are important to judge a pitcher.

[baseball7897]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

So I was right, cool. I haven't pitched in 6 years. What do you think about Sheets in 2004?

 

Sheets in 04 was one of the better pitchers in the league. He played on a poor Brewers team, which caused his w-l record to be worse than it should of been.

 

I already said there are the exceptions when using wins to judge a pitcher. But, I also said pitchers like Zambrano, Capuano, Johnson had alot of wins on poor teams. Which indicates how good they are by their pitching record.

 

Their whip, k rate, and era are even better indicators. A better pitcher will more likely get more wins, but those other stats correlate MUCH higher to a pitcher's true ability.

 

If you go to page 3 I think it is, I said I used WHIP, BAA, and IP to judge a pitcher also.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Sheets has shoulder problems, right? I stopped pitching after 8th grade, but he's holding the ball pretty low in that picture. My guess is that it puts stress on that shoulder to bring it back up as he drives to the plate. Of course, I'm probably wrong, and yet I can still figure out how good a pitcher Ben Sheets is(a very good one when healthy). BTW, Ben Sheets in 2004: 237 IP, .226 BAA, 0.98 WHIP, 34 starts, 12-14 W-L

 

Hand and elbow are too low, ball facing forward, body is ahead of arm. After just noticing those things, I could tell you that he will land on stiff front leg, and will over-stride or land on his heel. I just notcied that he is not using his hips enough. Which puts stress on the pitching arm.

 

So I was right, cool. I haven't pitched in 6 years. What do you think about Sheets in 2004?

 

Sheets in 04 was one of the better pitchers in the league. He played on a poor Brewers team, which caused his w-l record to be worse than it should of been.

 

I already said there are the exceptions when using wins to judge a pitcher. But, I also said pitchers like Zambrano, Capuano, Johnson had alot of wins on poor teams. Which indicates how good they are by their pitching record.

 

Their whip, k rate, and era are even better indicators. A better pitcher will more likely get more wins, but those other stats correlate MUCH higher to a pitcher's true ability.

 

If you go to page 3 I think it is, I said I used WHIP, BAA, and IP to judge a pitcher also.

 

WHIP and BAA are not bad indicators. Wins and IP add little to it. IP may tell me the pitcher's durability, which does have value. I'd prefer to look at a comprehensive stat like PRC or Pitching win shares. They combine the stats you mention as well as others to indicate how well a pitcher performs. Wins is so far down the list, it shouldn't be mentioned.

[Mephistopheles]

I already said there are the exceptions when using wins to judge a pitcher. But, I also said pitchers like Zambrano, Capuano, Johnson had alot of wins on poor teams. Which indicates how good they are by their pitching record.

 

Not really, a team can have one average starter, a good offense and four terrible starters. The teams' record will suck, but the average starter will have a very good W-L record.

 

In the case of Zambrano the Cubs have 4 terrible starters and a terrible offense. However the Cubs' offensive output isn't dispersed evenly. In fact Zambrano's run support is 5.50 runs per game, which is 12th in the league.

 

I'd prefer to look at a comprehensive stat like PRC or Pitching win shares.

 

Win shares involves a teams' win-loss record so for evaluation of a player's true impact in a nuetral setting, it's not that good IMO.