Francisco Liriano

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Actually if I remember correctly, both Bosner and Liriano were in the Giants top 10 prospects, with Liriano rated as one of the top arms in their system. He came straight over and was rated top 5 in a very deep Twins system (Bosner was around 25).

 

Liriano is crazy to watch. Most of the pitching prospects who have come along in the past few years have been guys who reared back and threw the ball. What puts him ahead of guys like Felix Hernandez and Matt Cain (yes, even Felix) is his ability to spot all three of his pitches well enough that he forces guys to chase for K's, just like Santana.

 

I'm actually more excited about him than I was about Santana just a few years ago. He throws harder, he spots his pitches just as well, and he's getting his shot alot earlier.

[soccer10k]

Koufax has the ninth best career ERA+ among lefties. Here is the list:

 

Lefty Grove

Randy Johnson

John Franco

John Hiller

Rube Waddell

Harry Brecheen

Whitey Ford

Noodles Hahn

Sandy Koufax

 

Franco and Hiller were relievers.

Hahn only pitched 6 years (the other two he made 19 total appearances).

 

That puts Koufax 6th all time in career ERA+ among lefty starters.

 

It's too bad that Koufax retired at 30 though because he put up his best four ERA+ (by far) in the last four years of his career including his best ERA+ in his final season. One has to wonder how much higher his career ERA+ would have been if he played a few more years. I would imagine that a three more years in the 170 ERA+ range would vault him over the other lefty starters except Johnson and Grove.

 

EDITED to include the two bolded words.

Edited July 20, 2006 by soccer10k

[rocket]

Sandy Koufax's best ERA+ for a season is the 56th best ever.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_season.shtml

 

Pedro's 2000 ERA+ was roughly 100 points better.

[Knyption]

I love watching the kid pitch. stupid lucky Twinkies...

 

Lol too bad Hendry does not get the good ones from them.

[TruffleShuffle]

Sandy Koufax's best ERA+ for a season is the 56th best ever.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_season.shtml

 

Pedro's 2000 ERA+ was roughly 100 points better.

 

I'd still have a hard time arguing that the last 5 years of Koufax's career is among the best 5-year stretches for any pitcher in baseball history. He had an ERA+ during those years of 143, 161, 187,160, 190, which is outstanding, and he threw over 300 innings in 3 of those years. He is very much like Ralph Kiner - easily brilliant enough for a stretch to propel himself into the HOF and into the discussion of the all-time greats at his position.

[TruffleShuffle]

Sandy Koufax ERA+:

 

1961-124-5

1962-143-3

1963-161-2

1964-187-1

1965-160-3

1966-190-1

 

 

He didn't have a long career, but he was probably the best pitcher during the 1960s. I'd rank him higher than many who discount him due to the pitcher's era of the 1960's. Yes, it was a pitcher's era, but he and Bob Gibson were the best of that era.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Sandy Koufax's best ERA+ for a season is the 56th best ever.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_season.shtml

 

Pedro's 2000 ERA+ was roughly 100 points better.

 

I'd still have a hard time arguing that the last 5 years of Koufax's career is among the best 5-year stretches for any pitcher in baseball history. He had an ERA+ during those years of 143, 161, 187,160, 190, which is outstanding, and he threw over 300 innings in 3 of those years. He is very much like Ralph Kiner - easily brilliant enough for a stretch to propel himself into the HOF and into the discussion of the all-time greats at his position.

 

In the last five yrs of his career, he was so DOMINANT, that people forget he had a off and on to start his career. I mean come on people Koufax "overrated?' NO friggin' way. And you won't convince me otherwise. And I will group him in the elite of the best pitchers in the history of the game. Without a DOUBT.

[Roast]

Excuse my stupidity, But what is ERA +, how do you calculate it, and how is it used?

[rocket]

Sandy Koufax's best ERA+ for a season is the 56th best ever.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_season.shtml

 

Pedro's 2000 ERA+ was roughly 100 points better.

 

I'd still have a hard time arguing that the last 5 years of Koufax's career is among the best 5-year stretches for any pitcher in baseball history. He had an ERA+ during those years of 143, 161, 187,160, 190, which is outstanding, and he threw over 300 innings in 3 of those years. He is very much like Ralph Kiner - easily brilliant enough for a stretch to propel himself into the HOF and into the discussion of the all-time greats at his position.

 

In the last five yrs of his career, he was so DOMINANT, that people forget he had a off and on to start his career. I mean come on people Koufax "overrated?' NO friggin' way. And you won't convince me otherwise. And I will group him in the elite of the best pitchers in the history of the game. Without a DOUBT.

 

Yes, he was overrated.

 

You can be overrated and still be great.

[rocket]

Excuse my stupidity, But what is ERA +, how do you calculate it, and how is it used?

 

# ERA+ - the ratio of the league's ERA (adjusted to the pitcher's ballpark) to that of the pitcher. > 100 is above average and < 100 is below average. lgERA / ERA

[snoodmonger]

Excuse my stupidity, But what is ERA +, how do you calculate it, and how is it used?

 

I was about to write the same thing.

[TB_11]

Excuse my stupidity, But what is ERA +, how do you calculate it, and how is it used?

 

This might be a naive assumption, but I think about ERA+ in roughly the same way I think about OPS+.

[soccer10k]

Sandy Koufax ERA+:

 

1961-124-5

1962-143-3

1963-161-2

1964-187-1

1965-160-3

1966-190-1

 

 

He didn't have a long career, but he was probably the best pitcher during the 1960s. I'd rank him higher than many who discount him due to the pitcher's era of the 1960's. Yes, it was a pitcher's era, but he and Bob Gibson were the best of that era.

 

Agreed. As I stated above, I think many people's opinion of Koufax would be drastically different if he had pitched a few more years (even until 34 or 35). Koufax won the Cy Young award in three of his last four years and won pitching's Triple Crown each of those three years. How many other pitchers have won pitching's Triple Crown three times in their career? Zero. Roger Clemens only won 3 of his 7 Cy Youngs before the age of 30. Koufax's short career has a huge affect on his status as one of the best pitchers of all time.

 

Note: I'm not trying to say that one should try to estimate what Koufax would have done in his career had he played longer. I'm just saying that IMO, Koufax's career would be considered MUCH more impressive had he played a few more years. Obviously one cannot judge a player's place among the all time greats based on what he could have done had something happened differently.