Dreaming of Carl Crawford

[BWcubs21]

What's so special about Crawford? He's not good at getting on base. I guess if he was a really good defensive CF his numbers would be nice out there, but nothing to give up a load of talent for. He plays LF and I don't know anything about his ability out there or his ability to move to center.

How is he "not good at getting on base"? He's got a .346 OBP this season (at the age of 24). I'd say .346 is good, ecspecially when you consider how young he is. He doesn't strike out too much (26 Ks in 242 ABs so far this year), has a decent OBP, has some good power, and a ton of speed. If this is the best he'll get, then I don't think he would command "an arm and a leg", but he's very young and improving. He also has stolen bases at a 81.5% success rate over his career.

 

You think .346 is "good.... :roll: . .346 is pretty average for a "leadoff hitter" with his speed and pop. Not to mention Crawford career OBP is .323, so...as of right now...if I was the DRays I would jumped on Santana/Crawford deal before the Angels reconsider. Having Kazmir/Santana at the top of the rotation, would finally give the DRays pitching hope for the not so distant future.

 

Unless it's a decent offer, I would pass on Crawford.

 

First of, the whole rolling eyes thing is getting old and its unnecessary. .346 for this team would be great. Beats any OF we have. I never said I wanted him to lead off, either BTW. I think saying his career OBP is lower than his current, is not a good way to prove your arguement. If it wasn't, I'd be worried. I think it shows signs that he's developing and maturing into a good hitter. I expect his OBP to continue to rise. The reason I said that his OBP was good (other than the fact that it's better than practically anyone on our team) is that he is very young, and only going to get better.

 

I agree, dont look at the career numbers of a 24 year old that is improving each year and say that is what you are going to get out of the kid.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Forget Crawford, if we're going to give up a bunch of talent to the D-Rays, get Gomes.

[frostwyrm]

Crawford will soon be horribly overpaid because of his speed and considering what we would have to give in trade to get him I don't want him as a short-term stopgap. Speed is fun and all but the Cubs have a lot of other holes to fill. Better to save money and trade bait for something besides Crawford.

[Backtobanks]

It is interesting that as the Cubs approach the worst record in baseball, we are arguing about the merits of obtaining a 24 year old speedster with power potential that has an obp of .346. It is fun to discuss the merits of these trade rumors, but the Cubs do need to do something to make a splash.

[BWcubs21]

Forget Crawford, if we're going to give up a bunch of talent to the D-Rays, get Gomes.

 

 

I wouldnt mind picking him up either! Its crazy how much talent that the Rays have in the outfield.

[Proven Veteran]

How about BJ Upton? They can't seem to figure out that he needs to move to CF.

[3finger]

Career adjusted OPS for Crawford and other guys on or rumored to be headed for the Cubs:

 

Murton 135 (160 ABs in 2005 -- this has obviously dropped)

Gomes 127

J. Jones 101

T. Hunter 100

Crawford 95

Pierre 87

 

Murton is covered in another thread. Gomes is (as I understand it) virtually untouchable. The rest of these guys don't have a ton of value unless they can play center, and only Hunter can really make that claim with a completely straight face. While Crawford can theoretically play there he has resisted moving to the position permanently.

 

Crawford has indeed improved every year, and he may be Shannon Stewart when he grows up. Good guy to grab now and then cut loose before the arbitration clock strikes midnight and he turns into a pumpkin.

[RynoRules]

Forget Crawford, if we're going to give up a bunch of talent to the D-Rays, get Gomes.

 

Seconded, but for the right price I'd be happy to have Crawford as well.

[Illini Iceman]

Career adjusted OPS for Crawford and other guys on or rumored to be headed for the Cubs:

 

Murton 135 (160 ABs in 2005 -- this has obviously dropped)

Gomes 127

J. Jones 101

T. Hunter 100

Crawford 95

Pierre 87

 

Murton is covered in another thread. Gomes is (as I understand it) virtually untouchable. The rest of these guys don't have a ton of value unless they can play center, and only Hunter can really make that claim with a completely straight face. While Crawford can theoretically play there he has resisted moving to the position permanently.

 

Crawford has indeed improved every year, and he may be Shannon Stewart when he grows up. Good guy to grab now and then cut loose before the arbitration clock strikes midnight and he turns into a pumpkin.

 

Crawford is signed to a relatively long term deal.

 

$2.5 million in 2006, $4 million in 2007 and $5.25 million in 2008.

 

Tampa Bay has an $8.25 million option for 2009 with a $2.5 million buyout. If the Devil Rays exercise that option, the team gets a $10 million option for 2010 with a $1.25 million buyout.

 

In addition, the contract includes escalators that could boost Crawford's salary to $11.5 million in the final year.

 

This is a big reason why the Rays will not trade him unless they are blown away by an offer.

[The Hawk]

I'd rather have Upton as well...

[hawkeyecub]

The guy is 24 years old, he's not a finished product. Honestly if Felix Pie came up and was putting up the numbers that Crawford has put up the last two years, I'm sure everyone would be ecstatic and thinking he was a future superstar. At that age hitting .302/.346/.463 with incredible speed while being very good defensively is great, yet some of you act like it's just ho-hum.

Most of you talked more highly of Corey after his '04 season than you do about Crawford now.

 

He's 24 years old, he has a ton of talent with developing power and has improved every year in the bigs. Look at the guy's talent a little bit instead of just his OBP. He has the tools which would project him to get better over the next 3-4 years. Look at how much his power has developed since '03. He's not just a slap-hitting speedy guy who doesn't get on base very well anymore.

No I'm not in love with speed, but it definitely doesn't hurt. That speed allowed him to hit 33 doubles last year, 19 triples the year before (15 last year) while also stealing 50-60 bases per year at a rate of 82% for his career and combined with the fact that his strikeout rate has decreased allows him to leg out more infield singles. Oh and he's on pace to hit over 20 home runs this year.

[goonys evil twin]

The guy is 24 years old, he's not a finished product. Honestly if Felix Pie came up and was putting up the numbers that Crawford has put up the last two years, I'm sure everyone would be ecstatic and thinking he was a future superstar. At that age hitting .302/.346/.463 with incredible speed while being very good defensively is great, yet some of you act like it's just ho-hum.

Most of you talked more highly of Corey after his '04 season than you do about Crawford now.

 

He's 24 years old, he has a ton of talent with developing power and has improved every year in the bigs. Look at the guy's talent a little bit instead of just his OBP. He has the tools which would project him to get better over the next 3-4 years. Look at how much his power has developed since '03. He's not just a slap-hitting speedy guy who doesn't get on base very well anymore.

No I'm not in love with speed, but it definitely doesn't hurt. That speed allowed him to hit 33 doubles last year, 19 triples the year before (15 last year) while also stealing 50-60 bases per year at a rate of 82% for his career and combined with the fact that his strikeout rate has decreased allows him to leg out more infield singles. Oh and he's on pace to hit over 20 home runs this year.

 

I'm not saying he's worthless and can't continue to improve. I just think he's overrated by the hype, hasn't done enough as a pro to warrent all the excitement, and isn't capable of being a cornerstone corner outfielder. I think he might peak at a little higher level than Jacque Jones, and probably make a lot of money as a major leaguer for many years. But I don't think he's worth giving up a ton of talent, because I don't think he can be a difference maker. Guys who walk as infrequently as him have to be one of a kind talents to have great success. He's no Vlad, or even Soriano.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I think the only way Crawford remains in a corner OF position is if he stays with Tampa. I see the Cubs showing interest in Crawford as a sign they feel Pie won't be quite ready next year, and they no longer have an intention of bringing Pierre back. Too bad Jim didn't look to Tampa for that speedy leadoff guy before dumping everyone and their brother in Miami. I would welcome Crawford, especially how he'll still be making less than Pierre for a few years and will easily outproduce him.

[Backtobanks]

The guy is 24 years old, he's not a finished product. Honestly if Felix Pie came up and was putting up the numbers that Crawford has put up the last two years, I'm sure everyone would be ecstatic and thinking he was a future superstar. At that age hitting .302/.346/.463 with incredible speed while being very good defensively is great, yet some of you act like it's just ho-hum.

Most of you talked more highly of Corey after his '04 season than you do about Crawford now.

 

He's 24 years old, he has a ton of talent with developing power and has improved every year in the bigs. Look at the guy's talent a little bit instead of just his OBP. He has the tools which would project him to get better over the next 3-4 years. Look at how much his power has developed since '03. He's not just a slap-hitting speedy guy who doesn't get on base very well anymore.

No I'm not in love with speed, but it definitely doesn't hurt. That speed allowed him to hit 33 doubles last year, 19 triples the year before (15 last year) while also stealing 50-60 bases per year at a rate of 82% for his career and combined with the fact that his strikeout rate has decreased allows him to leg out more infield singles. Oh and he's on pace to hit over 20 home runs this year.

 

I'm not saying he's worthless and can't continue to improve. I just think he's overrated by the hype, hasn't done enough as a pro to warrent all the excitement, and isn't capable of being a cornerstone corner outfielder. I think he might peak at a little higher level than Jacque Jones, and probably make a lot of money as a major leaguer for many years. But I don't think he's worth giving up a ton of talent, because I don't think he can be a difference maker. Guys who walk as infrequently as him have to be one of a kind talents to have great success. He's no Vlad, or even Soriano.

 

Exactly how many "difference makers" are out there and possibly available in a trade?

[goonys evil twin]

Exactly how many "difference makers" are out there and possibly available in a trade?

 

Cabrera is a realistic possibility to be trade bait. Abreu is still capable of leading a good team from the heart of the order. If not him, then Burrell might be on the block. Drew may be dealt by the new Dodgers regime. I'm not a big fan of either, but Carlos Lee and Soriano would probably have more impact than Crawford, and both could be on new teams sometime this season, if not next. To me he's Corey Patterson, without the blown out knee and time spent screwed around by the Cubs.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with him in CF (assuming he can play), but you'd really have to do something to the rest of the lineup to truly solve the problems on this team.

[BWcubs21]

The guy is 24 years old, he's not a finished product. Honestly if Felix Pie came up and was putting up the numbers that Crawford has put up the last two years, I'm sure everyone would be ecstatic and thinking he was a future superstar. At that age hitting .302/.346/.463 with incredible speed while being very good defensively is great, yet some of you act like it's just ho-hum.

Most of you talked more highly of Corey after his '04 season than you do about Crawford now.

 

He's 24 years old, he has a ton of talent with developing power and has improved every year in the bigs. Look at the guy's talent a little bit instead of just his OBP. He has the tools which would project him to get better over the next 3-4 years. Look at how much his power has developed since '03. He's not just a slap-hitting speedy guy who doesn't get on base very well anymore.

No I'm not in love with speed, but it definitely doesn't hurt. That speed allowed him to hit 33 doubles last year, 19 triples the year before (15 last year) while also stealing 50-60 bases per year at a rate of 82% for his career and combined with the fact that his strikeout rate has decreased allows him to leg out more infield singles. Oh and he's on pace to hit over 20 home runs this year.

 

I'm not saying he's worthless and can't continue to improve. I just think he's overrated by the hype, hasn't done enough as a pro to warrent all the excitement, and isn't capable of being a cornerstone corner outfielder. I think he might peak at a little higher level than Jacque Jones, and probably make a lot of money as a major leaguer for many years. But I don't think he's worth giving up a ton of talent, because I don't think he can be a difference maker. Guys who walk as infrequently as him have to be one of a kind talents to have great success. He's no Vlad, or even Soriano.

 

You dont think Carl Crawford can be a difference maker?!?! On what facts are you basing this, because everything I see leads me to believe he is an ideal #2 hitter. He has great speed (possibly the best in the game), impoving strike zone judgement (16/26 BB/K ratio this year), developing power (25+ potential), gets on-base at good rate and that aspect is showing vast improvements. I am not going to pretend to be a stats expert, but I would be interested to know the average OBP of a #2 hitter. Like I have said before I dont think he is going to be the best player in the game, but he will become a very very good player. Also as HawkeyeCub said, if Pie was doing this we would be hailing him as the next great Cub. Crawford is ONLY 24 and is not yet a finished product.

[goonys evil twin]

You dont think Carl Crawford can be a difference maker?!?! On what facts are you basing this, because everything I see leads me to believe he is an ideal #2 hitter.

 

I don't think there is anything ideal about hitting a guy, for whom a .346 OBP would be a career best, near the top of the order. He doesn't have much patience, strikes out too much in comparison to his walks to really think he's going to emerge as a truly great player.

 

I'm basing this on the careers of guys in baseball who truly are difference makers right now. Guys like Vlad and Nomar can get away with this type of approach and still produce, but that player is few and far between. David Wright is a young player with difference maker written all over him. He hits for average, draws walks and has fantastic power. He outpaces Crawford in everything that matters most. Carl has been no better than Orlando Cabrerra this year, who is certainly not a difference maker. He's been a hair better than Joe Crede, who has never been confused with a difference maker.

[BWcubs21]

Exactly how many "difference makers" are out there and possibly available in a trade?

 

Cabrera is a realistic possibility to be trade bait. Abreu is still capable of leading a good team from the heart of the order. If not him, then Burrell might be on the block. Drew may be dealt by the new Dodgers regime. I'm not a big fan of either, but Carlos Lee and Soriano would probably have more impact than Crawford, and both could be on new teams sometime this season, if not next. To me he's Corey Patterson, without the blown out knee and time spent screwed around by the Cubs.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with him in CF (assuming he can play), but you'd really have to do something to the rest of the lineup to truly solve the problems on this team.

 

I dont think there is one player who can solve the problems that this team is having, but thats a whole different discussion. Obviously Cabrera would be incredible, but there are going to be a ton of teams throwing top prospects at the Marlins. I would love to get Carlos Lee for next year as a FA. BTW I would assume the Cubs would put Crawford in CF, not in a corner outfield spot, but then again assuming things with Dusty in charge doesnt always work.

[goonys evil twin]

I dont think there is one player who can solve the problems that this team is having, but thats a whole different discussion.

 

No one player can solve all the problems. But some players can solve more than others. And there are plenty of guys who can solve more than Crawford. Carl would be a nice piece of your team, if he was already on your team. But if you have to give up a load to get him it defeats the purpose.

[BWcubs21]

You dont think Carl Crawford can be a difference maker?!?! On what facts are you basing this, because everything I see leads me to believe he is an ideal #2 hitter.

 

I don't think there is anything ideal about hitting a guy, for whom a .346 OBP would be a career best, near the top of the order. He doesn't have much patience, strikes out too much in comparison to his walks to really think he's going to emerge as a truly great player.

 

I'm basing this on the careers of guys in baseball who truly are difference makers right now. Guys like Vlad and Nomar can get away with this type of approach and still produce, but that player is few and far between. David Wright is a young player with difference maker written all over him. He hits for average, draws walks and has fantastic power. He outpaces Crawford in everything that matters most. Carl has been no better than Orlando Cabrerra this year, who is certainly not a difference maker. He's been a hair better than Joe Crede, who has never been confused with a difference maker.

 

Like I said, I dont think he will be one of the best players in the game (such as Wright could be), but he will be very good. If you only want to add players such as that to our team then you are delusional becuase it will never happen. Now if you are saying that teams or people have him hyped up to be that kind of player and he will cost us way to much, then I can understand your not wanting to aquire him. To say he is just a ho-hum player and assume is his never going to improve, well then that is completly inaccurate. Yes his .346 OBP is a career high, but he is only 24 years old, I would be much more concerned if he was 28 and that was his career high. One last thing, look at his patience this year as opposed to last:

2006 16/26 BB/K

2005 27/84 BB/K

[BWcubs21]

I dont think there is one player who can solve the problems that this team is having, but thats a whole different discussion.

 

No one player can solve all the problems. But some players can solve more than others. And there are plenty of guys who can solve more than Crawford. Carl would be a nice piece of your team, if he was already on your team. But if you have to give up a load to get him it defeats the purpose.

 

Ok, well I agree with you then it that sense. If he is going to cost an arm and a leg then I would probably pass as well. I thought you were contending that he just was a ho-hum player. I would rather save top prospects for someone such as Cabrera.