The Non-Accountability Continues

[badgercub]

I'd rather go through Kimm disaster after Baylor was fired to see Derker or Riggleman.

 

Dierker got the Astros to the playoffs every year that he was manager. Riggleman got a horrible Cubs team to a wild card berth.

 

I have always been surprised that Riggs has never been offered another managerial position.

[CubinNY]

 

Please tell me Derker and Riggleman are jokes....Davey Johnson and Bobby Valentine I could at least entertain, but the other two?

 

I'd rather go through Kimm disaster after Baylor was fired to see Derker or Riggleman.

 

Check Derkier's record and the number of division titles before you call him a joke.

Here is a link to make it easy for you.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/dierkla01.shtml

 

And Riggleman took a very bad Cub team and managed to get them to the playoffs. He was dealt a far worse hand then Dusty by his GM and performed much better.

[bring stone back]

And I think you'll get that at the END of the year. If Baker doesn't win this year, he's gone. There is no way this team finishes with 75 wins or so and Baker comes back.

 

Why fire him now is my question. Give the guy a shot to get us out of this hole. If he doesn't....he's gone.

 

He had his chance. He had it in 2003, when the team melted down. He had it in 2004 when the team melted down. He had it in 2005 when the team stunk. He had it 3 weeks ago when the team stunk. Why not fire him now? He's a bad manager, has been for a while.

 

You fire him now because the team is playing like crap and Dusty is a bad manager. What other reason do you need?[/quote

 

Replace him with who then? If you have a better candidate the Cubs could get tomorrow, I'm all ears.

 

For instance, if you would have fired Baker last year before the Marlins started talking to Girardi, I would have loved to see that. Say you get rid of Baker because it wasn't working and Girardi was your guy and you took it. Fine...but don't just fire someone and then bring in someone worse to do a job to please the complaining fans or media.

 

It all goes to accountability. So if you sucked at your job and continually mismanaged those around you would your bosses say, well, because we have to pay you for the rest of the year, even though you are not providing results, we'll keep you around. The Cubs don't owe Dusty a thing (except the cash to buy out the rest of his contract, yet another example of Hendry bidding against himself and overpaying). They paid him well and now it is time to say good bye. Bring in an interim manager now and start targeting a manager for next year if you can't find a suitable candidate now.

 

 

They hired Dusty Baker for a reason and he should be given this chance to change it. If he can't then get someone else to try, but let's not go through this joke of an interim manager routine.

 

I'm hoping that Hendry and MacPhail are already planning for a worse case scenario if this year holds to form now and are looking at possible replacements. If they aren't/don't, then I will agree with everyone of you saying this management is incompetent.

[badgercub]

And I think you'll get that at the END of the year. If Baker doesn't win this year, he's gone. There is no way this team finishes with 75 wins or so and Baker comes back.

 

Why fire him now is my question. Give the guy a shot to get us out of this hole. If he doesn't....he's gone.

 

He had his chance. He had it in 2003, when the team melted down. He had it in 2004 when the team melted down. He had it in 2005 when the team stunk. He had it 3 weeks ago when the team stunk. Why not fire him now? He's a bad manager, has been for a while.

 

You fire him now because the team is playing like crap and Dusty is a bad manager. What other reason do you need?

 

Replace him with who then? If you have a better candidate the Cubs could get tomorrow, I'm all ears.

 

For instance, if you would have fired Baker last year before the Marlins started talking to Girardi, I would have loved to see that. Say you get rid of Baker because it wasn't working and Girardi was your guy and you took it. Fine...but don't just fire someone and then bring in someone worse to do a job to please the complaining fans or media.

 

It all goes to accountability. So if you sucked at your job and continually mismanaged those around you would your bosses say, well, because we have to pay you for the rest of the year, even though you are not providing results, we'll keep you around. The Cubs don't owe Dusty a thing (except the cash to buy out the rest of his contract, yet another example of Hendry bidding against himself and overpaying). They paid him well and now it is time to say good bye. Bring in an interim manager now and start targeting a manager for next year if you can't find a suitable candidate now.

 

 

They hired Dusty Baker for a reason and he should be given this chance to change it. If he can't then get someone else to try, but let's not go through this joke of an interim manager routine.

 

I'm hoping that Hendry and MacPhail are already planning for a worse case scenario if this year holds to form now and are looking at possible replacements. If they aren't/don't, then I will agree with everyone of you saying this management is incompetent.

 

Why is the interim manager thing a joke? Most recently Jack McKeon took the Marlins to a world Chamionship in 2003 and got the full time job and look at what the Astro did after they fired Jimy Williams. What's to say the same thing can't happen to the Cubs? It is painfully obvious that Dusty is not the guy to get the job done so why wait to make the change? What are your reasons to keep Dusty on? What can you point to that says he is a good manager and can turn this thing around?

[beer man]

What can be more worse case than right now?

 

Poor hitting - check

Poor pitching - check

Poor fielding - check

Lack of hustle - check

Inability to develop players - check

Making excuses - priceless

[bring stone back]

What can be more worse case than right now?

 

Poor hitting - check

Poor pitching - check

Poor fielding - check

Lack of hustle - check

Inability to develop players - check

Making excuses - priceless

 

You don't think the players deserve any of this blame? Last time I checked, Baker or Hendry didn't hit, pitch, field or hustle.

[Banedon]

What can be more worse case than right now?

 

Poor hitting - check

Poor pitching - check

Poor fielding - check

Lack of hustle - check

Inability to develop players - check

Making excuses - priceless

 

You don't think the players deserve any of this blame? Last time I checked, Baker or Hendry didn't hit, pitch, field or hustle.

 

Last time I checked, Hendry was responsible for putting the players on the field, and Baker was brought in for the ability to "get the most out of his players".

[bring stone back]

And I think you'll get that at the END of the year. If Baker doesn't win this year, he's gone. There is no way this team finishes with 75 wins or so and Baker comes back.

 

Why fire him now is my question. Give the guy a shot to get us out of this hole. If he doesn't....he's gone.

 

He had his chance. He had it in 2003, when the team melted down. He had it in 2004 when the team melted down. He had it in 2005 when the team stunk. He had it 3 weeks ago when the team stunk. Why not fire him now? He's a bad manager, has been for a while.

 

You fire him now because the team is playing like crap and Dusty is a bad manager. What other reason do you need?

 

Replace him with who then? If you have a better candidate the Cubs could get tomorrow, I'm all ears.

 

For instance, if you would have fired Baker last year before the Marlins started talking to Girardi, I would have loved to see that. Say you get rid of Baker because it wasn't working and Girardi was your guy and you took it. Fine...but don't just fire someone and then bring in someone worse to do a job to please the complaining fans or media.

 

It all goes to accountability. So if you sucked at your job and continually mismanaged those around you would your bosses say, well, because we have to pay you for the rest of the year, even though you are not providing results, we'll keep you around. The Cubs don't owe Dusty a thing (except the cash to buy out the rest of his contract, yet another example of Hendry bidding against himself and overpaying). They paid him well and now it is time to say good bye. Bring in an interim manager now and start targeting a manager for next year if you can't find a suitable candidate now.

 

 

They hired Dusty Baker for a reason and he should be given this chance to change it. If he can't then get someone else to try, but let's not go through this joke of an interim manager routine.

 

I'm hoping that Hendry and MacPhail are already planning for a worse case scenario if this year holds to form now and are looking at possible replacements. If they aren't/don't, then I will agree with everyone of you saying this management is incompetent.

 

Why is the interim manager thing a joke? Most recently Jack McKeon took the Marlins to a world Chamionship in 2003 and got the full time job and look at what the Astro did after they fired Jimy Williams. What's to say the same thing can't happen to the Cubs? It is painfully obvious that Dusty is not the guy to get the job done so why wait to make the change? What are your reasons to keep Dusty on? What can you point to that says he is a good manager and can turn this thing around?

 

If you're going to use recent history, you should also point out where the Astros were a year ago at this point and where they finished. They didn't fire Garner when things were going poorly and that turned out okay.

[bring stone back]

What can be more worse case than right now?

 

Poor hitting - check

Poor pitching - check

Poor fielding - check

Lack of hustle - check

Inability to develop players - check

Making excuses - priceless

 

You don't think the players deserve any of this blame? Last time I checked, Baker or Hendry didn't hit, pitch, field or hustle.

 

Last time I checked, Hendry was responsible for putting the players on the field, and Baker was brought in for the ability to "get the most out of his players".

 

Agreed. If we're going to play the blame game I think there is a lot more to be placed on Hendry than Baker.

 

For those criticizing Baker's lineups there's really not a whole lot you can piece together right now when you're working with a recently struggling Ramirez, Todd Walker and Michael Barrett as the heart of your lineup.

 

Throw in heavily relying on essentially two rookies to boot. You wonder why Contreras threw 80% or so of his pitches for strikes yesterday. If I had to face that, I'd challenge these guys every pitch, too.....

[Banedon]

Agreed. If we're going to play the blame game I think there is a lot more to be placed on Hendry than Baker.

 

Where we don't agree, is that I think they should both be fired, and if Hendry isn't going to be fired, I still think Baker needs to go.

 

Don't you think Baker had input on which players he wanted (ie: Small, speedy players)

Edited May 22, 2006 by Banedon

[badgercub]

 

If you're going to use recent history, you should also point out where the Astros were a year ago at this point and where they finished. They didn't fire Garner when things were going poorly and that turned out okay.

 

Fair enough, but you still didn't answer my question as to what makes you think Dusty has what it takes to turn this around? Or what has he shown you that you think he is a good manager?

[beer man]

I mentioned the three blind mice at the beginning of this post, and figured it was assumed I want all three to go.

[badgercub]

What can be more worse case than right now?

 

Poor hitting - check

Poor pitching - check

Poor fielding - check

Lack of hustle - check

Inability to develop players - check

Making excuses - priceless

 

You don't think the players deserve any of this blame? Last time I checked, Baker or Hendry didn't hit, pitch, field or hustle.

 

Last time I checked, Hendry was responsible for putting the players on the field, and Baker was brought in for the ability to "get the most out of his players".

 

Agreed. If we're going to play the blame game I think there is a lot more to be placed on Hendry than Baker.

 

For those criticizing Baker's lineups there's really not a whole lot you can piece together right now when you're working with a recently struggling Ramirez, Todd Walker and Michael Barrett as the heart of your lineup.

 

Throw in heavily relying on essentially two rookies to boot. You wonder why Contreras threw 80% or so of his pitches for strikes yesterday. If I had to face that, I'd challenge these guys every pitch, too.....

 

Well, one of those rookies is batting .290 something and the other isn't hurting the lineup as much as some of the overpriced vets. The point is, his horrible lineups date a lot further back than this year. What about last year when he refused to let Walker lead off and kept putting "the savior" Neifi Perez and his sub .300 OBP in the lead off spot, or the equally worse option of Corey Patterson who should have been hitting 7th or 8th? Also, I haven't seen one other poster on here absolve Hendry of his role in this, so I don't even know why he is pertinent to the conversation of whether or not Dusty should go.

[goonys evil twin]

You can't counteract the fire Dusty calls by saying Hendry should be blamed as well. Most people who want Dusty gone also want Hendry gone. But since Hendry just got a contract extension it's kind of pointless to hope for his immediate dismissal. That extension was mistake #1, you don't fix that mistake by keeping Baker out of some sense of fairness. That's just 2 mistakes, and you don't need me to tell you what 2 mistakes does not equal.

[bring stone back]

 

If you're going to use recent history, you should also point out where the Astros were a year ago at this point and where they finished. They didn't fire Garner when things were going poorly and that turned out okay.

 

Fair enough, but you still didn't answer my question as to what makes you think Dusty has what it takes to turn this around? Or what has he shown you that you think he is a good manager?

 

I don't have that answer. I do think he is a guy the players respect and will play hard for. His teams do have a history of playing well in the second half, although his recent Cubs' teams would indicate otherwise.

 

I'm not a huge Dusty supporter. Do I think he deserves a chance to get this team out of their hole? Yes, I do. However, if the management really think he's to blame, then fire him.....what I'm saying is don't fire the guy just for the sake of making a move. Only do so if you have a viable candidate available.

[badgercub]

 

If you're going to use recent history, you should also point out where the Astros were a year ago at this point and where they finished. They didn't fire Garner when things were going poorly and that turned out okay.

 

Fair enough, but you still didn't answer my question as to what makes you think Dusty has what it takes to turn this around? Or what has he shown you that you think he is a good manager?

 

I don't have that answer. I do think he is a guy the players respect and will play hard for. His teams do have a history of playing well in the second half, although his recent Cubs' teams would indicate otherwise.

 

I'm not a huge Dusty supporter. Do I think he deserves a chance to get this team out of their hole? Yes, I do. However, if the management really think he's to blame, then fire him.....what I'm saying is don't fire the guy just for the sake of making a move. Only do so if you have a viable candidate available.

 

Wouldn't you agree that that is not the case right now? As far as guys playing hard for him. When half the guys are not mentally in the game and continue to make the same mental mistakes over and over again, I just don't think Dusty has them playing hard for him, they don't seem to be prepared at all.

[bring stone back]

What can be more worse case than right now?

 

Poor hitting - check

Poor pitching - check

Poor fielding - check

Lack of hustle - check

Inability to develop players - check

Making excuses - priceless

 

You don't think the players deserve any of this blame? Last time I checked, Baker or Hendry didn't hit, pitch, field or hustle.

 

Last time I checked, Hendry was responsible for putting the players on the field, and Baker was brought in for the ability to "get the most out of his players".

 

Agreed. If we're going to play the blame game I think there is a lot more to be placed on Hendry than Baker.

 

For those criticizing Baker's lineups there's really not a whole lot you can piece together right now when you're working with a recently struggling Ramirez, Todd Walker and Michael Barrett as the heart of your lineup.

 

Throw in heavily relying on essentially two rookies to boot. You wonder why Contreras threw 80% or so of his pitches for strikes yesterday. If I had to face that, I'd challenge these guys every pitch, too.....

 

Well, one of those rookies is batting .290 something and the other isn't hurting the lineup as much as some of the overpriced vets. The point is, his horrible lineups date a lot further back than this year. What about last year when he refused to let Walker lead off and kept putting "the savior" Neifi Perez and his sub .300 OBP in the lead off spot, or the equally worse option of Corey Patterson who should have been hitting 7th or 8th? Also, I haven't seen one other poster on here absolve Hendry of his role in this, so I don't even know why he is pertinent to the conversation of whether or not Dusty should go.

 

Hendry is very relevant to this discussion. You have to have the players to win. The best manager in the game couldn't win with players not performing, so Hendry is very much a part of this discussion.

 

That being said, he does have questionable lineups and there are reasons to criticize, but I don't think the Cubs losing this year falls entirely on Dusty Baker's shoulders.

[Banedon]

...but I don't think the Cubs losing this year falls entirely on Dusty Baker's shoulders.

 

Has there been one post that said it was entirely Dusty's fault? Seems like you're arguing a point that no one else has even made.

[bring stone back]

 

If you're going to use recent history, you should also point out where the Astros were a year ago at this point and where they finished. They didn't fire Garner when things were going poorly and that turned out okay.

 

Fair enough, but you still didn't answer my question as to what makes you think Dusty has what it takes to turn this around? Or what has he shown you that you think he is a good manager?

 

I don't have that answer. I do think he is a guy the players respect and will play hard for. His teams do have a history of playing well in the second half, although his recent Cubs' teams would indicate otherwise.

 

I'm not a huge Dusty supporter. Do I think he deserves a chance to get this team out of their hole? Yes, I do. However, if the management really think he's to blame, then fire him.....what I'm saying is don't fire the guy just for the sake of making a move. Only do so if you have a viable candidate available.

 

Wouldn't you agree that that is not the case right now? As far as guys playing hard for him. When half the guys are not mentally in the game and continue to make the same mental mistakes over and over again, I just don't think Dusty has them playing hard for him, they don't seem to be prepared at all.

 

You could be right....I don't know. I hope they give the guy a chance to get this team out of the hole they dug themselves. If they don't, all of your wishes will come true at the end of the year and Baker will not be retained.

 

Who would you like to see them hire as manager assuming Dusty is let go?

[bring stone back]

...but I don't think the Cubs losing this year falls entirely on Dusty Baker's shoulders.

 

Has there been one post that said it was entirely Dusty's fault? Seems like you're arguing a point that no one else has even made.

 

Yet, a majority of you are arguing he needs to be the guy fired right now? That sounds fair.

[Banedon]

...but I don't think the Cubs losing this year falls entirely on Dusty Baker's shoulders.

 

Has there been one post that said it was entirely Dusty's fault? Seems like you're arguing a point that no one else has even made.

 

Yet, a majority of you are arguing he needs to be the guy fired right now? That sounds fair.

 

If I thought there was a realitic possibility of Hendry being fired at the same time, I'd be all for it. Please look at my previous posts on the issue if you'd like. It shouldn't be hard to find. Most people arguing Dusty should be fired believe that Hendry should be too. But Hendry just got an extension last month. The chances of him being fired are next to nill. Dusty is the only realistic option at the moment of a firing that could actually take place, that could have any kind of positive impact on this ballclub.

 

Again, this is not all Dusty fault. But he's a BIG factor, and shouldn't be kept just because other people screwed up too.

[badgercub]

...but I don't think the Cubs losing this year falls entirely on Dusty Baker's shoulders.

 

Has there been one post that said it was entirely Dusty's fault? Seems like you're arguing a point that no one else has even made.

 

Yet, a majority of you are arguing he needs to be the guy fired right now? That sounds fair.

 

I don't think it is unfair. Dusty has had 3+ years to show us something. I am not even going to bring wins and losses into this because I know, especially this year he hasn't had much to work with but the least you should expect is that no matter who is in the lineup ( many of which are guys Dusty lobbied for) they should at least be expected to play head up ball and in his tenure as manager this has not been the case at all, not even in 2003. I truly believe they won in '03 despite Dusty. There are numerous examples to point to as to why I think Dusty should be fired but that would be the main reason, he just isn't a good manager and while most will tell you a manager might only account for x number of wins throughout the course of a season I have to believe that Dusty accounts for x number of losses because most of the time he has no clue as to what he is doing in the dugout, I honestly don't know how he has survived as a manager this long.

(Hairston wouldn't have killed them for one game, plus they suck anyway and would probably lose with or without him)

I can't wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnn......with or withouuuuuuuut yoooooooooouuu

[badgercub]

(Hairston wouldn't have killed them for one game, plus they suck anyway and would probably lose with or without him)

I can't wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnn......with or withouuuuuuuut yoooooooooouuu

 

I would prefer to think of the Cubs season as something closer to "Sunday, bloody Sunday"

(Hairston wouldn't have killed them for one game, plus they suck anyway and would probably lose with or without him)

I can't wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnn......with or withouuuuuuuut yoooooooooouuu

 

I would prefer to think of the Cubs season as something closer to "Sunday, bloody Sunday"

It certainly won't be "October"