The first WBC casualty

[CaliforniaRaisin]

FWIW, when Z came back from the WBC and pitched in ST, he had his best spring ever performance wise.

 

doesn't mean much. Remember when Woody went 5-0 in 2004 ST. Yea, we don't want to go there, but just sayin ST doesnt mean diddly.

 

And then looked the best he's ever looked until his injury in LA...

[CaliforniaRaisin]

The Score reported this morning that Freddy Garcia tested positive for marijuana use during testing for his WBC participation (not MLB). From what they were saying, there's no MLB ramifications for the positive test. He may be banned from international competition for some period of time.

 

Somehow, this doesn't shock me.

[goonys evil twin]

Johan Santana 1-3 4.45

Brad Lidge 0-1 6.39

Jake Peavy 1-3 5.17

Freddy Garcia 4-1 5.86

 

All WBC pitchers. Good thing the White Sox can hit for Garcia.

 

You've listed 4 pitchers out of probably about 40 guys that pitched in the WBC. I have no clue how they're doing, they may all be terrible too. But 4 pitchers' stat lines is proving nothing.

 

Most of the pitchers that went deep into the WBC, don't pitch in the majors (Cuba/Japan), and there were only a few that got significant innings.

 

Furthermore, we know the number of names doesn't prove anything. The whole world of understanding baseball injuries is still in the infancy stages. But it's also true that nobody has proven the WBC didn't cause any harm. It's like pitch count. Just because nobody has proven that 140 pitches is extremely dangerous doesn't mean a smart man would throw guys out there that long. I think there's enough evidence now, and there was enough concern going in, and there is enough logic behind the idea that pitching "meaningful" innings in early March, completely out of sync with normal preperation routines for pitchers, could be a bad thing and could have a negative effect on several pitchers.

 

If 4 out of every 40 people who take a certain drug suffer severe complications, you wouldn't scoff at the correlation. Nobody is saying pitching in the WBC will hurt you. They are saying it's very possible that pitching in the WBC can hurt you, and there's not enough benefit (there's really no benefit actually, has anybody heard a thing about the WBC since the regular season started?) to justify that rather high risk.

 

It didn't take years of studying pitchers to think that throwing in the WBC could be bad for guys, given the timing and the emotional tug of doing your best for your countrymen. It was a concern going in, and so far, multiple star pitchers are having bad starts to the season.

Edited May 2, 2006 by goony's evil twin

[goonys evil twin]

dusty and goony are like two peas in a pod.

 

Baker said Zambrano could have been affected by pitching for Venezuela in the World Baseball Classic because "possibly he had to turn it on a little sooner than he wanted to turn it on." Baker also theorized Zambrano was going through a "dead arm" period, as happens to pitchers in spring training.

 

soulmates.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "dead arm" entails, but he has as much zip on his pitches as ever. He's just not locating them well. "dead head" maybe, and not the Jerry Garcia/Freddie Garcia type"

 

I don't know how anybody could try and claim Zambrano has had the same zip. I've watched several games and not one time did I see a high reading on the gun. It's true that guns vary in their readings, but we're talking about several stadiums.

 

Anyway, not being able to locate is also something that could come about when your arm isn't right, or when your routine was broken up in preperation for the season, or when you have to give a little more effort than normal to get that zip on the ball.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Just because nobody has proven that 140 pitches is extremely dangerous doesn't mean a smart man would throw guys out there that long. I think there's enough evidence now, and there was enough concern going in, and there is enough logic behind the idea that pitching "meaningful" innings in early March, completely out of sync with normal preperation routines for pitchers, could be a bad thing and could have a negative effect on several pitchers.

 

Wait a minute, decades upon decades of pitchers pitching 300-400 innings, finishing dozens of games per year is not enough evidence that pitch counts may be overrated, but a small number of pitchers who participated in the WBC struggling this April is enough that the tournament has a negative effect on pitchers?

[SouthSideRyan]

Johan Santana 1-3 4.45

Brad Lidge 0-1 6.39

Jake Peavy 1-3 5.17

Freddy Garcia 4-1 5.86

 

All WBC pitchers. Good thing the White Sox can hit for Garcia.

 

You've listed 4 pitchers out of probably about 40 guys that pitched in the WBC. I have no clue how they're doing, they may all be terrible too. But 4 pitchers' stat lines is proving nothing.

 

Most of the pitchers that went deep into the WBC, don't pitch in the majors (Cuba/Japan), and there were only a few that got significant innings.

 

Clarifying, 40 was an estime on the # of MLB pitchers from the WBC, not the total. There were far more than 40 pitchers in the WBC.

 

 

Furthermore, we know the number of names doesn't prove anything. The whole world of understanding baseball injuries is still in the infancy stages. But it's also true that nobody has proven the WBC didn't cause any harm. It's like pitch count. Just because nobody has proven that 140 pitches is extremely dangerous doesn't mean a smart man would throw guys out there that long. I think there's enough evidence now, and there was enough concern going in, and there is enough logic behind the idea that pitching "meaningful" innings in early March, completely out of sync with normal preperation routines for pitchers, could be a bad thing and could have a negative effect on several pitchers.

 

Throwing 140 pitches is repeating a stressful activity over and over again. There is a small sample of 140+ outings to go off of, but from what I've seen the negatives that come from it are far greater than 10%. I don't think there's any evidence right now other than some circumstantial evidence that some guys who happened to pitch in the WBC had rough starts.

 

You mentioned significant innings earlier. Brad Lidge pitched 2 innings. Johan Santana pitched 8.1 Zambrano threw 6.2 Garcia threw 7.1 Is this really considered significant?

 

If 4 out of every 40 people who take a certain drug suffer severe complications, you wouldn't scoff at the correlation. Nobody is saying pitching in the WBC will hurt you. They are saying it's very possible that pitching in the WBC can hurt you, and there's not enough benefit (there's really no benefit actually, has anybody heard a thing about the WBC since the regular season started?) to justify that rather high risk.

 

And I think calling it high risk is pretty out there based solely on the slow starts of some good pitchers. Good pitchers have slow starts every year. There's not always a reason for it, other than just having a slow start.

 

It didn't take years of studying pitchers to think that throwing in the WBC could be bad for guys, given the timing and the emotional tug of doing your best for your countrymen. It was a concern going in, and so far, multiple star pitchers are having bad starts to the season.

 

I never said it's not possible that the WBC is bad for pitchers, but I don't think a month's worth of stats is the compelling evidence to convince me. I don't understand the timing complaint as pitchers were pretty much on schedule with where they would be in spring training. There's an emotional tug if you're in a pennant race too, but I don't think there's been any evidence that pitchers who are in tight races perform poorly in the postseason. I don't see how emotions being involved is going to wind up making you a poor pitcher the first month of a season. The only effect I can think of involving emotions would be a pitcher overthrowing in the WBC games, which would just lead to poor WBC #s, not MLB #s.

[goonys evil twin]

Just because nobody has proven that 140 pitches is extremely dangerous doesn't mean a smart man would throw guys out there that long. I think there's enough evidence now, and there was enough concern going in, and there is enough logic behind the idea that pitching "meaningful" innings in early March, completely out of sync with normal preperation routines for pitchers, could be a bad thing and could have a negative effect on several pitchers.

 

Wait a minute, decades upon decades of pitchers pitching 300-400 innings, finishing dozens of games per year is not enough evidence that pitch counts may be overrated, but a small number of pitchers who participated in the WBC struggling this April is enough that the tournament has a negative effect on pitchers?

 

And how many young talented arms were blown out and never heard from again in those decades upon decades of men throwing up hill in 2 feet of snow both ways?

 

I never said it was absolute proof. Personally I believed all along that it would negatively affect some pitchers, and I believe it has. But I'm not claiming it's a proven fact. I just think it's foolish to pretend the theory holds no water.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't understand the timing complaint as pitchers were pretty much on schedule with where they would be in spring training.

 

Youn don't understand the timing complaint? Guys were not even close to on schedule. They completley overhauled their routine this spring. They started in February like they normally do, but completely changed things for the tournament. Normally they'd be in there throwing half-assed spring training innings. They aren't going balls out, national pride doesn't hinge on a 3-2 count against some AAA player in the 3rd inning of a spring training game. So instead of just trying to get your work in against live hitting in meaningless outings, you're trying to keep your country alive in a poorly thought out tournament.

 

There's an emotional tug if you're in a pennant race too, but I don't think there's been any evidence that pitchers who are in tight races perform poorly in the postseason. I don't see how emotions being involved is going to wind up making you a poor pitcher the first month of a season. The only effect I can think of involving emotions would be a pitcher overthrowing in the WBC games, which would just lead to poor WBC #s, not MLB #s.

 

So you are saying overthrowing can't have any negative effects in the future? Overthrowing in early March when you are normally just getting your arm lose is exactly the type of thing that can have an effect down the road. The emotions of the moment can cause you to throw caution to the wind and throw like it's a pennant race instead of throwing like it's spring training. There's an enormous difference.

 

Everyone of these guys is used to just loosening up in February, then tossing some meaningless innings in early March, dialing it up a little bit more in late March and then starting off the season. By late in the season they are already into the pattern their bodies have all been trained to endure.

 

I just find it completely irrational, and so typically baseball, to ignore that there could be a problem here.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I just find it completely irrational, and so typically baseball, to ignore that there could be a problem here.

 

Once again, because a small number of pitchers are struggling? What about Isringhausen or Jeff Weaver or Jon Garland or Livan Hernandez or Randy Johnson or Andy Pettitte, etc? The evidence does not support your claims.

[badger1679666666]

I just find it completely irrational, and so typically baseball, to ignore that there could be a problem here.

 

Once again, because a small number of pitchers are struggling? What about Isringhausen or Jeff Weaver or Jon Garland or Livan Hernandez or Randy Johnson or Andy Pettitte, etc? The evidence does not support your claims.

 

What does bringing those struggling pitchers into the argument have to do with Goony's theory that participation in the WBC might affect certain pitchers negatively?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I just find it completely irrational, and so typically baseball, to ignore that there could be a problem here.

 

Once again, because a small number of pitchers are struggling? What about Isringhausen or Jeff Weaver or Jon Garland or Livan Hernandez or Randy Johnson or Andy Pettitte, etc? The evidence does not support your claims.

 

What does bringing those struggling pitchers into the argument have to do with Goony's theory that participation in the WBC might affect certain pitchers negatively?

 

Are you serious?

[badger1679666666]

I just find it completely irrational, and so typically baseball, to ignore that there could be a problem here.

 

Once again, because a small number of pitchers are struggling? What about Isringhausen or Jeff Weaver or Jon Garland or Livan Hernandez or Randy Johnson or Andy Pettitte, etc? The evidence does not support your claims.

 

What does bringing those struggling pitchers into the argument have to do with Goony's theory that participation in the WBC might affect certain pitchers negatively?

 

Are you serious?

 

Yes.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I just find it completely irrational, and so typically baseball, to ignore that there could be a problem here.

 

Once again, because a small number of pitchers are struggling? What about Isringhausen or Jeff Weaver or Jon Garland or Livan Hernandez or Randy Johnson or Andy Pettitte, etc? The evidence does not support your claims.

 

What does bringing those struggling pitchers into the argument have to do with Goony's theory that participation in the WBC might affect certain pitchers negatively?

 

Are you serious?

 

Yes.

 

There is absolutely no evidence to support the claim. None. For every struggling WBC pitcher, we could probably find 2 or 3 who did not participate and are struggling just as much or more. Not to mention that there are plenty of WBC pitchers who are not struggling at all.

[badger1679666666]

I just find it completely irrational, and so typically baseball, to ignore that there could be a problem here.

 

Once again, because a small number of pitchers are struggling? What about Isringhausen or Jeff Weaver or Jon Garland or Livan Hernandez or Randy Johnson or Andy Pettitte, etc? The evidence does not support your claims.

 

What does bringing those struggling pitchers into the argument have to do with Goony's theory that participation in the WBC might affect certain pitchers negatively?

 

Are you serious?

 

Yes.

 

There is absolutely no evidence to support the claim. None. For every struggling WBC pitcher, we could probably find 2 or 3 who did not participate and are struggling just as much or more. Not to mention that there are plenty of WBC pitchers who are not struggling at all.

 

No one is saying that participation in the WBC CAUSES bad performance. No one is saying that non-participation guarantees health and good performance.

 

There may be a correlation between the WBC and struggling pitchers, and citing the struggles that have nothing to do with the WBC doesn't make any sense. I don't think Goony ever said that the only pitchers that struggled are those in the WBC.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

No one is saying that participation in the WBC CAUSES bad performance. No one is saying that non-participation guarantees health and good performance.

 

There may be a correlation between the WBC and struggling pitchers, and citing the struggles that have nothing to do with the WBC doesn't make any sense. I don't think Goony ever said that the only pitchers that struggled are those in the WBC.

 

Dear WBC,

 

I hate you for what you did to Zambrano.

 

Screw off.

[CubinNY]

I don't know if pitching in the WBC affected the pitchers, but it certianly could have.

 

However, citing examples of non-WBC pitchers who are struggling is about as good as evidence as any that pitching in the WBC is not the cause of all struggles.

 

I don't think we can know until the season is over and we look at the data not just from the MLB pitchers but the Korean and Japanese pitchers too. Although those guys typically throw alot, if I am not mistaken.

[badger1679666666]

No one is saying that participation in the WBC CAUSES bad performance. No one is saying that non-participation guarantees health and good performance.

 

There may be a correlation between the WBC and struggling pitchers, and citing the struggles that have nothing to do with the WBC doesn't make any sense. I don't think Goony ever said that the only pitchers that struggled are those in the WBC.

 

Dear WBC,

 

I hate you for what you did to Zambrano.

 

Screw off.

 

I think that it's pretty clear that was frustrated hyperbole by Goony. (Kind of like when people in the Game Thread advocate benching Aramis for Neifi). If not and he actually believes that WBC caused these problems, then I disagree. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that it might have a connection though.

[badger1679666666]

However, citing examples of non-WBC pitchers who are struggling is about as good as evidence as any that pitching in the WBC is not the cause of all struggles.

 

Yes it is evidence that the WBC is not the cause of ALL struggles. (Actually there is no causation here, only correlation). However it is not evidence that argues AGAINST a correlation between the WBC and struggling pitchers. It merely shows that there are more factors than just one, that are associated with struggling pitchers.

[SouthSideRyan]

However, citing examples of non-WBC pitchers who are struggling is about as good as evidence as any that pitching in the WBC is not the cause of all struggles.

 

Yes it is evidence that the WBC is not the cause of ALL struggles. (Actually there is no causation here, only correlation). However it is not evidence that argues AGAINST a correlation between the WBC and struggling pitchers. It merely shows that there are more factors than just one, that are associated with struggling pitchers.

 

But if the only evidence are those struggles, and other similar non-WBC pitcher's struggles are shown, it's reason to believe there is no relation between poor starts and the WBC based on stat lines alone.