Cubs, Giants Discussing Nico Hoerner Trade

21 minutes ago, Backtobanks said:

His trade value according to BTV is 44.1.  I can't see how his value is going to go up as a utility infielder unless someone gets hurt long-term and he fills in spectacularly.  Perhaps the deal I suggested wasn't as good as you would like, but it was certainly better than the ones mentioned for Hoerner.  Now is the time to take advantage of his high trade value and get what this team needs for 2026 and beyond.  You want top pitching prospects. then broker a deal with Shaw+ Brown for Abreu + Early or Shaw+ Brown + Wicks for Abreu + Tolle.

There you go. Much better. 

6 hours ago, Rob said:

Is being willing stand up for his beliefs moral if the beliefs themselves are not?

It's not just "I support a regime actively engaged in ethnic cleansing (a.k.a. genocide), kidnapping foreign leaders, extrajudicial killings which are 100% illegal under international law, etc..." He's just saying he's unrepentant about his belief in those things.

Standing up for those beliefs doesn't show character. Character would be questioning the validity of those beliefs - being willing to admit he was wrong. That would be character. As is, he's just a jackass. And the Cubs are better off without attracting the attention.

You are speaking from a self-righteous perspective. Human morality is inherently subjective and imperfect. There isn’t a living, breathing person on this earth that doesn’t hold beliefs that are immoral to someone else, whether they are shaped by religion or an ever-shifting social consensus. We are all jackasses.

37 minutes ago, Hot Sauce said:

You are speaking from a self-righteous perspective. Human morality is inherently subjective and imperfect. There isn’t a living, breathing person on this earth that doesn’t hold beliefs that are immoral to someone else, whether they are shaped by religion or an ever-shifting social consensus. We are all jackasses.

I must have missed the part where I was championing an effort to make millions of other people suffer. If you think that is equivalent to whatever nonsense you're going on about, then there's no helping you.

6 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

I must have missed the part where I was championing an effort to make millions of other people suffer. If you think that is equivalent to whatever nonsense you're going on about, then there's no helping you.

What you missed was the point.

I like Rob, but his post was grandiose, self-righteous posturing. Politics be damned, every person on this forum has skeletons in their closet. Matt Shaw is no more of a jackass than anyone else here, and I will include myself in that. It's an uncomfortable truth that most people don't have the courage to confront. 

3 hours ago, Hot Sauce said:

What you missed was the point.

I like Rob, but his post was grandiose, self-righteous posturing. Politics be damned, every person on this forum has skeletons in their closet. Matt Shaw is no more of a jackass than anyone else here, and I will include myself in that. It's an uncomfortable truth that most people don't have the courage to confront. 

we get it, you don't like it when people stand for things. you don't have to keep calling people out who care about stuff

It’s all a value judgement based on relative relationship to one’s own perspective. 
 

But, we all need to do some reflecting on our values. The fact that he left the team to go to a political rally sanctifying a man who made a living by literally being a walking ass hole is a problem for me. Kirk said many things that any fair person would call inflammatory to say the least. He took pleasure in cruelty and called it Christian values. 
 

From my perspective, that is a character flaw well within in the range of jackass. Or at least reveals an unexamined life. 

if he gets hits and plays well I’ll be happy in the same way I was about Chapman on the Cubs.

Can we please change the thread title. This has been thoroughly debunked. Its embarrassing. 

2 hours ago, Bull said:

Can we please change the thread title. This has been thoroughly debunked. Its embarrassing. 

I'd settle for teaching Matthew Lentz and chatgpt what position Nico plays

22 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

I must have missed the part where I was championing an effort to make millions of other people suffer. If you think that is equivalent to whatever nonsense you're going on about, then there's no helping you.

If you can’t ignore every aspect of a player off the field, stop watching sports, the whining is insufferable. 

27 minutes ago, Gjfificifjdej said:

If you can’t ignore every aspect of a player off the field, stop watching sports, the whining is insufferable. 

He literally skipped a game down the stretch of a playoff race to go to his memorial/rally. Not sure how you are supposed to separate his off the field actions when they directly impact his on the field performance. 

8 minutes ago, UMFan83 said:

He literally skipped a game down the stretch of a playoff race to go to his memorial/rally. Not sure how you are supposed to separate his off the field actions when they directly impact his on the field performance. 

I do think people are making more out of what he did because they hate the person he did this for. I hate the message that Shaw follows as well. But, honestly, if a liberal leader was killed and a Cub was a friend of that person and asked permission to leave the team to attend the service, would we be as hard on him? I don’t think we would. Again, I don’t understand Shaw’s beliefs. I disagree, completely with it. But I have to seperate that from my feelings for him as a ballplayer. I would be fine with them trading him. But not because of his beliefs or even actions that day. 

56 minutes ago, Gjfificifjdej said:

If you can’t ignore every aspect of a player off the field, stop watching sports, the whining is insufferable. 

Some of us have morals, apparently you can just set yours aside for entertainment.

1 hour ago, Rcal10 said:

I do think people are making more out of what he did because they hate the person he did this for. I hate the message that Shaw follows as well. But, honestly, if a liberal leader was killed and a Cub was a friend of that person and asked permission to leave the team to attend the service, would we be as hard on him? I don’t think we would. Again, I don’t understand Shaw’s beliefs. I disagree, completely with it. But I have to seperate that from my feelings for him as a ballplayer. I would be fine with them trading him. But not because of his beliefs or even actions that day. 

Unless I missed it, the only beliefs we know about that was mentioned he shares with Kirk was that they both shared the same Christian faith. 

They lived in the same complex in Arizona where they met, Kirk was a big cubs fan, and they struck up a close friendship over the Cubs and Christianity.

14 minutes ago, chibears55 said:

Unless I missed it, the only beliefs we know about that was mentioned he shares with Kirk was that they both shared the same Christian faith. 

They lived in the same complex in Arizona where they met, Kirk was a big cubs fan, and they struck up a close friendship over the Cubs and Christianity.

 

 

I do think that is a cop out from Shaw. Look, I don’t like him or his values, but I do think some people carry it too far. You, on the other hand, are being a little naive if you really believe that. 

2 hours ago, UMFan83 said:

He literally skipped a game down the stretch of a playoff race to go to his memorial/rally. Not sure how you are supposed to separate his off the field actions when they directly impact his on the field performance. 

This.  It's not an accident that Busch is catching like 2% of the heat Shaw is despite also being a fan of all the same nazi horsefeathers.

19 hours ago, 17 Seconds said:

we get it, you don't like it when people stand for things. you don't have to keep calling people out who care about stuff

I find the irony of this statement quite amusing. lol

6 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

Some of us have morals, apparently you can just set yours aside for entertainment.

Morality is subjective. There is no single, universally accepted standard for morality. What is moral to you, may not be to someone else, so claiming moral superiority is ultimately foolish. I literally already made this point. 

10 hours ago, Rcal10 said:

I do think people are making more out of what he did because they hate the person he did this for. I hate the message that Shaw follows as well. But, honestly, if a liberal leader was killed and a Cub was a friend of that person and asked permission to leave the team to attend the service, would we be as hard on him? I don’t think we would. Again, I don’t understand Shaw’s beliefs. I disagree, completely with it. But I have to seperate that from my feelings for him as a ballplayer. I would be fine with them trading him. But not because of his beliefs or even actions that day. 

It’s a false equivalence. There is no one like Kirk on the left that people follow because that’s just not something that happens. They are in a cult of the stupid, racist, and misogynistic pretending to be Christians. 
 

So your example doesn’t hold water.

7 hours ago, UMFan83 said:

He literally skipped a game down the stretch of a playoff race to go to his memorial/rally. Not sure how you are supposed to separate his off the field actions when they directly impact his on the field performance. 

He was asked to be there by the grieving widow of a friend who was murdered. Put political stances aside for a moment and consider being in that position as a 24-year old. It's okay to dislike his association to Charlie Kirk and still extend a little grace.

The guy that needs to buy a vowel summed it up. The whining is insufferable. 

Just now, CubinNY said:

It’s a false equivalence. There is no one like Kirk on the left that people follow because that’s just not something that happens. They are in a cult of the stupid, racist, and misogynistic pretending to be Christians. 
 

So your example doesn’t hold water.

He didn't say "someone like Kirk", he said a liberal leader. 

2 hours ago, CubinNY said:

It’s a false equivalence. There is no one like Kirk on the left that people follow because that’s just not something that happens. They are in a cult of the stupid, racist, and misogynistic pretending to be Christians. 
 

So your example doesn’t hold water.

If the distain for Shaw is because he left the team in a playoff race it does matter. If you are questioning his character and desire to win and using him going to that funeral as a reason to question him than my example absolutely holds water. Even leaving politics out of it, if a player left a team for a funeral for a friend, would he get this much scrutiny if the friend wasn’t as much an ass hole as Kirk was. I doubt he would. 
As for every other criticism of Shaw, I am right with most here. I don’t agree with his beliefs, at all. I agree with you that he is in a cult. He is very misguided and misinformed and follows a man who preached division and hatred. 

2 hours ago, Hot Sauce said:

He was asked to be there by the grieving widow of a friend who was murdered. Put political stances aside for a moment and consider being in that position as a 24-year old. It's okay to dislike his association to Charlie Kirk and still extend a little grace.

The guy that needs to buy a vowel summed it up. The whining is insufferable. 

That is a horsefeathers joke. 

2 hours ago, Hot Sauce said:

Morality is subjective. There is no single, universally accepted standard for morality. What is moral to you, may not be to someone else, so claiming moral superiority is ultimately foolish. I literally already made this point. 

People like Kirk (and by association, Shaw) think that their morality is the right one, not yours or mine

14 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

Some of us have morals, apparently you can just set yours aside for entertainment.

MLB (and therefore the players on the field) is a product for consumption, I genuinely dont even consider that these guys exist outside of the diamond. 

3 hours ago, Rcal10 said:

If the distain for Shaw is because he left the team in a playoff race it does matter. If you are questioning his character and desire to win and using him going to that funeral as a reason to question him than my example absolutely holds water. Even leaving politics out of it, if a player left a team for a funeral for a friend, would he get this much scrutiny if the friend wasn’t as much an ass hole as Kirk was. I doubt he would. 
As for every other criticism of Shaw, I am right with most here. I don’t agree with his beliefs, at all. I agree with you that he is in a cult. He is very misguided and misinformed and follows a man who preached division and hatred. 

Let’s be real, that wasn't a funeral it was a Christian nationalist rally. Whether Shaw personally shares Charlie Kirk’s most extreme views is almost beside the point, you don’t skip work during a pennant race to fly across the country for a 'casual friend.'

If Kirk were just some anonymous neighbor Shaw texted occasionally, there’s no way he’s missing games for him. By choosing to be a visible part of that event, Shaw effectively endorsed Kirk’s platform, which includes the normalization of hate toward marginalized groups. You can't separate the player from the politics when the player chooses the politics over the team.