CUBZ99

An OF of Lofton, Huff and Murton would be difficult to watch defensively. In fact, that OF may have been the worst in the majors defensively. Also, as someone argued, the story said the D-Rays wanted two of the pitchers, not that those two pitchers were the entire deal.

Neifi's offense stats last year were average for National League SS and there are other teams who he could have signed with, that would use him as a starting SS. However, those teams are probably small market teams.

Thanks for following up on that. That article seemed like it had to much detail to be Van Dyck guessing at Dusty's answers. Dusty also made all of those same remarks at the convention, it is not beyond possibility that Dusty realizes he made some mistakes last year.

Last night at the convention they mentioned that Mark Prior likes to spend time on the internet message boards. Is he registered here?

Wow, nice job backing up your argument with some facts. Like I said earlier, I'm hoping that Dusty takes the team to the World Series this year, and all of this "Dusty is can't manage " garbage can be put to bed. The one thing that stuck out at the convention last night was that Dusty is definitely not satisfied with losing.

I've stated numerous times the list of managers I would take right now. You want opinions on who the next manager should be? Here you are. 1. Fredi Gonzalez- 3b coach Atlanta Braves. He's paid his dues as a minor league manager and as a major league coach. He's cut his teeth in the best organization in baseball over the last 15 years. He'd be an excellent choice. Of course he doesn't have any major league wins, but all managers have to get their start somewhere. It's impossible to pry away Cox, so do the next best thing and get someone who's learned from him and is likely to follow in his methods and thought. 2. Dave Johnsons- You like Dusty's record...you should like Johnson's more. Dusty's winning percentage is 537. Johnson holds a 564. Only Cox is higher among people not in the grave. More on Johnson: He's won a World Series, which is something Baker hasn't. In 14 seasons as a manager, he's had only three seasons under 500. Dusty has four seasons under 500 in 13 seasons. Johnson has managed four teams to a 600 season or higher, Dusty only once (though another team did finishe with a 599 %). Johnson had four more teams finish above 550, making a total of 8 out of 14 seasons, meaning he managed a 90-win team in eight of the 14 seasons he's managed. Dusty has done that only five times. If Davey could be lured back into managing, and I think if offered a contract similar to Baker's, he could be. He'd be an outstanding choice. Others I'd take over Baker: 3. Larry Dierker 4. Ned Yost Dusty sounded good tonight at the convention. He said all of the right things and genuinely sounded disappointed in last season. I would love to see Dusty back next year, if the Cubs make it to the World Series. Anything less will be another disappointment.

About Cedeno: I doubt the author of the article would be as detailed as this quote, if those were not Dusty's words. It is possible that Dusty said those things.

Do you really believe that Jones is going to digress that badly? No I believe Patterson isn't nearly as bad as some believe. Patterson's career numbers are worse than Neifi Perez's. I would say that qualifies as being pretty bad. Having seen Jones play at the Metrodome and being familiar with his attitude, I think he will suprise many on this board.

So you're saying we should have given Corey another chance, then. No, because Corey was "off" for five of his six seasons in the major leagues. Corey played in all of 11 games in 2000 following a SL Championship in West Tennessee. You call 11 games a "season"? OK. Fine. He was "off" for four of his five years in the big leagues. Not to get too technical, but he only had 131 ABs in '01. And put up league average or better numbers in two of the 4 remaining seasons. And there's the whole entering his prime years while Jones is leaving his, cheaper in money and years, not giving up draft picks, etc. What qualifies as league average? Average starting OF, Avg starting position player, Avg. player, including pitchers and bench players?

Do you really believe that Jones is going to digress that badly?

I don't understand your disdain for the cubs major league hitting coaches i.e. Matthews and Clines. Over the last three or so years they have taken some players and improved them significantly. For instance, before Aramis Ramirez came to the Cubs he had one season in Pitt in which he had a OBP above .300. Since coming to the Cubs he has put up seasons of .358 OBP and .373. That is a significant improvement. Lee's OBP was 40 pts higher than it has ever been in his career, and those numbers came with Clines as hitting coach. Barrett has improved significantly since coming to the Cubs. Grudz put up great numbers coming to the Cubs. Murton put up great numbers last year in limited time. I am interested to see what your explanation is, as to why these players can excel once coming to the Cubs. Why can Clines or Sarge have such an effect on these guys but yet be horrible with players coming through the Cubs system. To me it seems like more of a problem with the Cubs inability to develop position players at the lower levels and wouldn't that failure fall on Zisk, Listach and Von Joshua? If not do you blame the Cubs scouts for selecting sub par players?

Pie has put up good numbers at every stop so far, and is starting to hit with power without a huge sacrifice in OBP or BA. There is not much of a comparison of the two.

I would say he has a chance to be decent in Baltimore but not in Chicago. And why is that? Isn't it possible that Patterson, could benefit from a change of scenery in the similar fashion Barrett did? With Barrett, did the Cubs hitting instructors get the credit for turning him into one of the better offensive catchers? Same could be said about Derrek Lee and Ramirez.

I will say, good for Corey. I would have loved to see him develop into the player that they thought he was going to be when they drafted him.

You just don't get it. At all. If you can't support your argument with any facts, you can always try to attack the poster? LOL! If you feel attacked, get some new skin. My entire argument is about how you approach negotiations. Its about one's philosophy. What "facts" are you necessarily looking for? Like I said, you just don't get it. That isn't an attack, that is a fact. As an expert negotiator, i'm sure you are aware that making statements such as yours, indicates your lack of any basis for your opinion. Instead you try to play the game of belittling people that disagree with your viewpoint.

It is sorely evident that you, along with others, are choosing not to comprehend certain components of this discussion. Or it is possible that you are choosing to ignore reality, which seems like the more likely choice. You are clearly in the minority by believing that Corey was somehow going to magically increase his trade value, by doing the same thing he has done for the last 6 years.

I don't understand the lack of a market for Walker (So far). You would think that some small market team would love to have a good hitting 2B for a fairly cheap price.

I noticed Von Joshua was promoted to AAA, is he the resident expert hitting coach?

You just don't get it. At all. If you can't support your argument with any facts, you can always try to attack the poster?

Let him be a backup OF. He's security if Pierre gets hurt, then if he gets hot you can spin him at the deadline. Like USS brought up, we hardly got anything for him, so it's not a huge deal if that deal isn't there next offseason, and there's a decent likelihood it will be. They already got Hairston.

It is possible that Hendry would have gotten zero in return for Patterson. Corey has shown absolutely nothing as major leaguer and it is doubtful that he ever would as a Cub. It is difficult to see why you would get so excited over losing a guy with worse career numbers than Neifi Perez. If that is sincerely your opinion, we have nothing to talk about. Transactions are about gambles. I think its a far better gamble to hold on to Patterson (as I set forth clearly earlier wherein I suggested he start the season in center rather than trade for Pierre) rather than unload him for non-factor players who Hendry will likely clog the roster with and save a couple of million. So you would rather have a career sub .298 OBP guy in CF than a career .350+ OBP guy? It may be possible that you over value Patterson. Yeah, that is exactly my point. Are you trying to oversimplify (thereby mischaracterize) my arguments? They are plain to see, but you pick and choose the portions that support your argument, seemingly just to be obstinant. I think the word you were trying to say was "obstinate" and you have still competely failed to back up your contention that Patterson would have somehow gotten better over night, or after 6 seasons in the Major Leagues would have improved his trade value. You seem to be unwilling to deal with the facts or the reality of the situation. Sure Patterson could have a career year next year, but judging by his past performance, it was not likely to happen.

Neither prospect we received is likely to be more than a backup or a bottom of the bullpen guy. What have they to be disappointed about? At this point, what were their other OF choices to go after? The prospect of having to watch him play everyday? :lol:

It is possible that Hendry would have gotten zero in return for Patterson. Corey has shown absolutely nothing as major leaguer and it is doubtful that he ever would as a Cub. It is difficult to see why you would get so excited over losing a guy with worse career numbers than Neifi Perez. If that is sincerely your opinion, we have nothing to talk about. Transactions are about gambles. I think its a far better gamble to hold on to Patterson (as I set forth clearly earlier wherein I suggested he start the season in center rather than trade for Pierre) rather than unload him for non-factor players who Hendry will likely clog the roster with and save a couple of million. So you would rather have a career sub .298 OBP guy in CF than a career .350+ OBP guy? It may be possible that you over value Patterson.

It is possible that Hendry would have gotten zero in return for Patterson. Corey has shown absolutely nothing as major leaguer and it is doubtful that he ever would as a Cub. It is difficult to see why you would get so excited over losing a guy with worse career numbers than Neifi Perez.

Leverage, what leverage? As Bruce Miles stated on this forum just a few days ago Corey was not a hot name at all throughout the baseball world. Well, you've made the point for me. He had no leverage. At all. Thus, it makes more sense to gamble into creating some leverage through 1) better play at the ML level; 2) better play at AAA; or 3) need created though injury in ST or the first part of the season. Negotiating is all about leverage. Trading players without any is just stupid when you know a player has talent (e.g. Corey). If it were some clown like Macias, when you are unlikely to get anything more than you've seen over his stay with the Cubs, then the likelihood of gaining leverage is low if not non-existent. But, that isn't the case with Corey. It is bad negotiating, pure and simple. It is always easier to make comments like this after the fact. Sure if Hendry would have had any idea that Corey would have turned out as bad as he did, I'm sure he would have traded him when he had "leverage." Instead, he took a gamble that Corey would improve and Patterson floundered. Last year, Hendry sent him to AAA to get his stuff together, he called him up late in the year and the Cubs even let him get significant playing time, possible to increase his trade value. Sooner or later you have to cut bait and get what you can get. The fact that the Cubs were able to get anything for him is remarkable and with Corey going to ST as a 5th OF or AAA bound, it is hard to see how he would have increased his trade value. But the point is this: Why not wait until ST, and then, at worst, you can make this same trade then? If an injury happens or Corey's performance turns around, then maybe you can get more for him than a "maybe" and a filler lefty. I understand moving him, and knew it would happen. I even called it happening like this, but that doesn't mean I think Hendry couldn't have played his cards better than he did. You can't keep selling low like he does. I see what you are saying, but the fact is that as CardFan pointed out Corey's career numbers are atrocious and, believe it or not, he gets on base less than Neifi Perez. So while many on here think it is ridiculous to pay a guy $2.5M to be a defensive specialist at SS/2B, somehow it is ok to pay a guy $3M a year to sit on the bench or spend the season in AAA. Sure it is possible that Corey would have a decent ST, but his career numbers indicate that he would continue to hit worse than Neifi and it is possible that Hendry would have been stuck with nothing.