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this is not going well for you. Except that they can't explain how parks are factored into those stats, so it's had for me to take them seriously in that regard. Seriously, I have provided reasoning with facts that can easily be explained. They are tossing out stats that CANNOT be explained by them, and instead are passing off somebody else's work as their own argument. Hamilton's splits are easily explained. The effect that Arlington had on other hitters this easily explained. I'm still waiting on the VORP explanation. Seriously, it makes their arguments look even weaker. "Ihave no idea how this stat is formulated or how parks are factored in.....but it totally makes me right. You can't argue it, because it's a stat that shows I'm correct." If Hamilton plays in a neutral park in 2008, he's an .850 OPS guy and we're not having this argument. PERIOD.

Can you not read? Stop making assumptions that are clearly wrong. I already said I like Hamilton, I really do. When the rumors of getting him popped up in the offseason I wanted him...badly. I just don't think he should be top 10 in the MVP voting. I know people who are recovering drug addicts, so stop acting like I have a problem with that.

At least I'm not hand picking a single stat and then acting like it shows you're 100% correct. Look at his home/road splits and what Arlington did for other hitters in 2008 and then try to tell me with a straight face that he was the 5th most valuable player in the league. If you do you're just lying to yourself and are biased. Pretty simple. 3rd best hitter on his own team. 139 OPS+ in Arlington, obviously significantly better than what Arlington did for other hitters in '08. Biased. Nope, just not comprehending what I'm writing. This thread is a perfect example of the what OP was talking about. As soon as you question anything that has to do with Josh Hamilton, you get destroyed...but not with facts. People just can't stand to fathom the idea that Hamilton might not be a god.

I wasn't bringing up Kinsler and Bradley in terms of MVP voting, because obviously the injuries would play a factor. My point in bringing them up was to show that Hamilton wasn't even a top 2 offensive player on his own team this season, yet apparently he was some freak of nature while on the field. He's "The natural".. but only when Bradley and Kinsler are on the DL. When they're healthy it's just not fair to ocmpare them..because Hamilton clearly rubbed off on them, allowing them to outperform him. What a great story. Okay, so you're touting VORP so hard.... so can you give me a detailed walkthrough of how stadiums are taken into account? I want equations and all that. I know it does, but I'd like to hear all aobut it from you.... otherwise you're just throwing out a number that somebody else came up with and passing it off as your own argument. Umm, I am? No I'm not, you're just choosing not to listen to what I'm saying. What metric am I denying? VORP and what else? I didn't deny the fact that he had just the 16th best OPS in the league. Where are all these denials from me? I asked you to explain the home/road part of VORP and that's it. Actually, you're are the one that is sticking to one metric and denying everything else. "Well yeah, all the other evidence shows that he shouldn't be in the top 10 of MVP voting, but VORP shows him as 5th so that's all that matters. I don't really know how home/road is factored into VORP either, but I bet it's good. The guy who made it is really smart."

At least I'm not hand picking a single stat and then acting like it shows you're 100% correct. Look at his home/road splits and what Arlington did for other hitters in 2008 and then try to tell me with a straight face that he was the 5th most valuable player in the league. If you do you're just lying to yourself and are biased. Pretty simple. 3rd best hitter on his own team. 139 OPS+ in Arlington, obviously significantly better than what Arlington did for other hitters in '08. AGAIN, I'm not saying he wasn't a good hitter. Seriously, I don't know why hard to understand. If Pujols was traded to Texas and put up a 1.450 OPS and I stated that his numbers were inflated by that park, it wouldn't mean that I was denying that he's a good hitter.

At least I'm not hand picking a single stat and then acting like it shows you're 100% correct. Look at his home/road splits and what Arlington did for other hitters in 2008 and then try to tell me with a straight face that he was the 5th most valuable player in the league. If you do you're just lying to yourself and are biased. Pretty simple. 3rd best hitter on his own team.

Obviously not park adjusted enough.

I really don't think I am. It's not that bad on this board, but the way most baseball people talk about what he did this season is way over the top and I think that will be reflected in the MVP voting.

Wait, it doesn't matter if he was helped greatly by his own park? Seriously? It really seems like you're reaching now. Of course it matters, because if any other player was put in Hamilton's position this season, he would have recieved the same beneifits. So because Hamilton gets that benefit, he is more valuable than those other guys? No, the stadium is just more valuable. This is relevant because every visiting player that steps into that staidum gets the same advantage, putting Hamilton less in front of the curve. Put it this way. Let's say the Rangers trade for Mark DeRosa, who then goes .300/.385/.525 with 26 home runs next season Meanwhile, Adrian Gonzalez goes .285/.365/.525 while playing in Petco. Pretend for a minute that they both played the same position... so who was more valuable? By your logic, DeRosa would be, although Gonzalez would have put up better numbers if they both played in the same park. That makes sense to you? If position is factored into MVP voting, then ballparks should be as well.

Not one game at Arlington....but a bunch at GAB which was the 7th best hitters park in 2007. Home 2007- 312/.372/.617 Road 2007- .274/.365/.497 Seriously. If Josh Hamtiton played for the Angels this year he'd probably be an .850 OPS guy Arlington turned Milton Bradley into a 1.000 OPS guy this season. It turned Malron Byrdi nto an .842 OPS guy. So yeah, when you consider that a .901 OPS isn't even that special to begin with, I don't think Hamilton should be anywhere near the top of the MVP voting. He used to do drugs and stuff though....so let's just give it to him. :shock: Yeah, a .901 OPS is nothing special. Just an easy top 20-25 player in the league. And 16th best this year. Nothing special though. Yea? I don't get what you're saying. We're talking aobut MVP...the most valuable player in the league.....not a "top 20-25 player". I never said a .901 OPS isn't good. It's good and makes you one of the top hitters in the game....but producing at the level that is matched by SEVERAL players every year......so is that "special"? You'll have to explain to me how that is special. I guess I'm weird for thinking that the MVP should go to somebody who was better than "top 20-25 player" in the league. Reading comprehension > you because he's a centerfielder and not a corner if/of? But the media doesn't say "great hitter for a center fielder." It's always "historic season for the cinderella story Josh Hamilton." Again, I'm not saying he wasn't good this year. I like Josh hamilton, I really do, I'm just sick of the ball licking over his good-but-nothing-special season. I mean come on, he had the 16th best OPS in the league while playing in the best hitters park in all of baseball, then I get blasted for saying that's "good but not special". I mean, if 16th best in your league while being helped tremendously by the park isn't special, then I don't know what is!

I guess you missed the original point of this thread...aka his massive home/road splits from playing in a stadium that turned Milton Bradley into a 1.000 hitter. Josh Hamilton- 3rd best hitter on his own team in 2008 and a living legend for it

By the way, you've just taken on a sacred cow and there's pretty much no way you're winning this one despite how correct you might be. Josh Hamilton deserves everything, period. They really should just change the team name to the Texas Fighting Hamiltons. Outstanding story. 16th best in OPS rankings, but number 1 in our hearts.

Not one game at Arlington....but a bunch at GAB which was the 7th best hitters park in 2007. Home 2007- 312/.372/.617 Road 2007- .274/.365/.497 Seriously. If Josh Hamtiton played for the Angels this year he'd probably be an .850 OPS guy Arlington turned Milton Bradley into a 1.000 OPS guy this season. It turned Malron Byrdi nto an .842 OPS guy. So yeah, when you consider that a .901 OPS isn't even that special to begin with, I don't think Hamilton should be anywhere near the top of the MVP voting. He used to do drugs and stuff though....so let's just give it to him. :shock: Yeah, a .901 OPS is nothing special. Just an easy top 20-25 player in the league. And 16th best this year. Nothing special though. Yea? I don't get what you're saying. We're talking aobut MVP...the most valuable player in the league.....not a "top 20-25 player". I never said a .901 OPS isn't good. It's good and makes you one of the top hitters in the game....but producing at the level that is matched by SEVERAL players every year......so is that "special"? You'll have to explain to me how that is special. I guess I'm weird for thinking that the MVP should go to somebody who was better than "top 20-25 player" in the league. Reading comprehension > you

9 people actually voted other than "no"? The low standards for some people are pathetic. There's no reason anyody should be happy with this season. 97 wins means asolutely nothing when you get swept in the first round. Nothing. All it does is make the sweep even worse.

Not one game at Arlington....but a bunch at GAB which was the 7th best hitters park in 2007. Home 2007- 312/.372/.617 Road 2007- .274/.365/.497 Seriously. If Josh Hamtiton played for the Angels this year he'd probably be an .850 OPS guy Arlington turned Milton Bradley into a 1.000 OPS guy this season. It turned Malron Byrdi nto an .842 OPS guy. So yeah, when you consider that a .901 OPS isn't even that special to begin with, I don't think Hamilton should be anywhere near the top of the MVP voting. He used to do drugs and stuff though....so let's just give it to him.

Same garbage as last year with the Bears. Have the game in your back pocket and give it up on the final drive. The defense has no balls whatsoever.

Wait, who said anything about him being a superstar? I never said anything about that or Pedroia either. Also, Todd Walker had a better career than Erstad at the plate.

Anybody else want to see what he can do over a full season? I think he should either be traded (if Hendry could get true value) or given a full time job. Obviously my first choice would be to get a good LH RF, but if the options are guys like Aubrey Huff and Bobby Abreu I'd rather just slide DeRosa to RF and give Fontenot a full time spot. I just don't see what good RF are available that we could realistically obtain. I'm just really curious about Fontenot. Is he a .750 OPS guy? .800? .850? It's amazing how the ball comes off his bat. It's not like he came out of nowhere either. He's a former first round pick and he's pretty much performed at all levels. Let's see what he can do.

How are you not an idiot? I am no more a troll than those that stick their head in the sand & claim we just ironically had a bad series...just like last year. How ironic would that be? So why did you say we should sign Soriano before we got him?

Wow you are very misinformed. First of all, Abreu is OPS's .850-.900? You know it's 2008, right? Abreu 07- .814 Abreu 08- .843 Hmm. So you're assuming that at age 35 Abreu is suddenly going to become better instead of continuing his steady decline? Oh, and yeah he stole 20 bases the last 2 seasons, but they were Ryan Theriot totals. He was caught 11 times in 33 attempts last season. That is not helping the team, it's hurting the team, badly. I'm not sure why you're hyping his stolen bases when his success rates have gone down so dramatically and are likely to continue at age 35. Also, the Fontenot/Theriot comparison is just ridiculous. Other than the fact that they're both short, white, and have names ending in "ot" they are nothing alike. It's like comparing Juan Pierre to Dustin Pedroia. Theriot is a slap hitter who hits singles. Fontenot drives the ball to all field. He can hit bombs to all fields. Can you imagine Theriot going opposite field over the outfielders head? Saying that Fontenot is a singles hitter like Theriot makes me wonder if you hate Fontenot for some reason, because it's simply not true. Again- Abreu 07- .814 Abreu 08- .843 Fontenot career- .826 And where is this "he will wear down over 150 games" stuff coming from? Did you just make that up? It sound like it. Explain to me why you've come to that conclusion.

That would have been a great team like 2 years ago. Now...no

It saddens me that I have no confidence whatsoever in the oranization taking the job away from Theriot. I'd be shocked if they were even considering it.

He did? 02- .803 03- .874 04- .728 05- .720 06- .797 07- .860 Add in his .697 OPS from last season and basically he's sucked for 4 of the last 5 seasons.

im certain hes an 800 ops guy who can reach 850 in a good year. Yup. I see no point whatsoever in getting Abreu when Fontenot oculd likely match or surpass the production Abreu would give us next year.

have you not seen the Cubs ineptitude at hitting good right handed pitchers enough This just in: Fontenot hits left handed. Anyways, they hit righties just fine.