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i like how scarey has been answering/responding to a smaller and smaller amount of points made my other posters has this thread has progressed. the fact that he had resorted to the "they are gms and know more" argument is pretty telling.

I guess I just take issue with the fact that you guys here seem to think that GMs, people who get paid millions of dollars for their expertise and have moved up through a system of professionals, are wrong and you're right. That they undervalue a guy like Adam Dunn and you have the correct value figured out. Did you ever stop to think that maybe it's not the GMs undervaluing Dunn, but you guys over valuing Dunn? Just stop and think about it as a possibility for a second. using the "gms know better because they are gms" argument is a copout. what about when sabean gave zito 126 million? what about 2/40 for andruw jones? 5/50 for gary matthews jr? 5/50 for juan pierre? 8/126 for soriano? do you agree with all those contracts? you have to, because you just said we can't question gms' intelligence Yes or no, you know better then an average baseball GM? Who said that we did? B/c they know more than me. Yes or no, have you agreed with every move the cubs have ever made? No. But I'm man enough to admit that I'm not in the position to say they were wrong... at least until hindsight. so you won't say that those guys were bad singing because you're a man? either that or you just don't want to amdit the very obvious truth. when those conbtracts were signed everybody knew they were bad...and guess what? it turns out they were, in fact, bad.

I guess I just take issue with the fact that you guys here seem to think that GMs, people who get paid millions of dollars for their expertise and have moved up through a system of professionals, are wrong and you're right. That they undervalue a guy like Adam Dunn and you have the correct value figured out. Did you ever stop to think that maybe it's not the GMs undervaluing Dunn, but you guys over valuing Dunn? Just stop and think about it as a possibility for a second. using the "gms know better because they are gms" argument is a copout. what about when sabean gave zito 126 million? what about 2/40 for andruw jones? 5/50 for gary matthews jr? 5/50 for juan pierre? 8/126 for soriano? do you agree with all those contracts? you have to, because you just said we can't question gms' intelligence Yes or no, you know better then an average baseball GM? why are you spinning everything around? i never said i knew more. that doesn't mean you can't understand when a gm is making a mistake. your arguments are becoming progressibly more weak and irrelevant.

f While we're on the subject, could you please tell me who you think was a better player in 2008? Adam Dunn or Justin Morneau? I'm not just talking about how important they were for their respective teams. I want to know in a vacuum, who played better last year, Dunn or Morneau? Dunn had 40 HRs, 100 RBI, 79 R and posted a .236/.386/.513 line Morneau had 23 HRs, 129 RBI, 97 R, and posted a .300/.374/.499 line Please, just tell me who was better and what your justification was? I would love to hear what any of you guys think here and really want to understand your side of it. I don't care that Morneau isn't in the Cubs plans, I simply want to know which you think was better offensively last year. Morneau, and I never said he wasn't. My point is that him being better has absolutely nothing to do with RBIs. Nothing. What makes him better? He's just a better hitter. Lots of stats show this. None of them are RBIs. You really need to stop with this RBI stuff. Show me one stat that shows he's a better hitter. I've actually already shown you one, and I can show you another if you want me to. I just want to know your argument on the topic besides "He's just a better hitter". no, you didn't show me one. you showed me one that you thought showed it, when really it showed absolutely nothing. i can't believe you're really talking about rbis so much. raul ibanez had more rbis than aramis last year. who was a better hitter? here's a stat though that actually does show morneau was better last year morneau- 137 ops+ dunn- 129 ops+

I guess I just take issue with the fact that you guys here seem to think that GMs, people who get paid millions of dollars for their expertise and have moved up through a system of professionals, are wrong and you're right. That they undervalue a guy like Adam Dunn and you have the correct value figured out. Did you ever stop to think that maybe it's not the GMs undervaluing Dunn, but you guys over valuing Dunn? Just stop and think about it as a possibility for a second. using the "gms know better because they are gms" argument is a copout. what about when sabean gave zito 126 million? what about 2/40 for andruw jones? 5/50 for gary matthews jr? 5/50 for juan pierre? 8/126 for soriano? do you agree with all those contracts? you have to, because you just said we can't question gms' intelligence

ugh ugh ugh. If his production comes from "1/2 run homers", then why does he drive in so many runs in a low amount of at-bats? also, why are you acting like his extremely high OBP doesn't lead to runs? dusty? is that you? so apparently a 2 run single is much more valuable than a 2 run home run or it could have something to do with the fact that dunn hit in a hitters park and morneau hit in a pitchers park. if they both played in the same park this year and both kept the samre numbers, people would be saying dunn was better http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

to sum up this thread -home runs aren't production -rbis are - dunn is the same as soriano - dunn's production would be more valuable if it consisted of bloops and seeing eye ground balls - slugging percentage is only comprised of home runs

Actually now that I look at it Morneau isn't really much better than Dunn. He was better than him in 2006 and 2008. Dunn has blown him away in every other year.

While we're on the subject, could you please tell me who you think was a better player in 2008? Adam Dunn or Justin Morneau? I'm not just talking about how important they were for their respective teams. I want to know in a vacuum, who played better last year, Dunn or Morneau? Dunn had 40 HRs, 100 RBI, 79 R and posted a .236/.386/.513 line Morneau had 23 HRs, 129 RBI, 97 R, and posted a .300/.374/.499 line Please, just tell me who was better and what your justification was? I would love to hear what any of you guys think here and really want to understand your side of it. I don't care that Morneau isn't in the Cubs plans, I simply want to know which you think was better offensively last year. Morneau, and I never said he wasn't. My point is that him being better has absolutely nothing to do with RBIs. Nothing. What makes him better? He's just a better hitter. Lots of stats show this. None of them are RBIs. You really need to stop with this RBI stuff.

Your logic here makes no sense. Dunn has provne year after year that he's going to put up about the same, solid, numbers. What difference does it make how he gets them? The only way your "contact produces bloops and errors" argument hold water is if you're saying that Dunn's strikeout will eliminate that and he won't be as productive. This is irrelevant becuase Dunn has provne year after year after year that he's going to put up the same numbers. The fact that he doesn't make contact and doesn't benefit from putting the ball in play on a consisten basis always shows in his stats, which are still good. We've established that he doesn't need that to be productive. Do you really not understand what I'm saying? You're acting as though a .300/.400/.500 line that is a result of bloops and soft hits is better than a .300/.400/.500 that isn't. Your theory is only useful for projecting how a guy might do, not when evaluating an established hitter. I'm sorry, but when you say something like this you can't expect to not lose credilbity and have people take you seriously. As for the RBI argument. Come on. Not only are RBIs an awful way to judge a player, but you're not even being fair about it. It's already been shown that Dunn has had significantly fewer RBI chances due to lineup differences and the fact that Dunn always has much fewer at-bats from walking so much. Morneau gets his RBIs from base hits... Dunn gets his from home runs. That may not look all pretty to you, but ultimately they are the same thing. The main problem with people who hate Dunn is that they form their opinions based on selective memory and the fact that Dunn looks bad by striking out a lot.

While we're on the subject, could you please tell me who you think was a better player in 2008? Adam Dunn or Justin Morneau? I'm not just talking about how important they were for their respective teams. I want to know in a vacuum, who played better last year, Dunn or Morneau? Dunn had 40 HRs, 100 RBI, 79 R and posted a .236/.386/.513 line Morneau had 23 HRs, 129 RBI, 97 R, and posted a .300/.374/.499 line Please, just tell me who was better and what your justification was? I would love to hear what any of you guys think here and really want to understand your side of it. I don't care that Morneau isn't in the Cubs plans, I simply want to know which you think was better offensively last year. Morneau, and I never said he wasn't. My point is that him being better has absolutely nothing to do with RBIs. Nothing.

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Also, a full year for Longoria and Carlos Pena had a significant drop off from the previous year. i think it's highly unlikely that pena ever has a season like 2007 again

theriot must be an elite offensive player since home runs aren't production scarey is cracking me up right now. home runs aren't production, but rbis are. epic

How do you know? Just because you aren't hearng rumors doesn't mean he's not getting a lot of interest. Again, why are you acting like you know this? You have no idea what is going on. But a flyout gives you a chance of extending the inning? I don't get that. Are you talking about guys getting bloop hits and finding holes because they make contact? That might be useful in determining how good a player might ened up being, but Dunn has established that he'll put up his numbers despite the strikeouts. If you're talking about the potential for errors by putting the ball in play... the amount of times over a full season that happens is very small and is only a very marginal difference. The truth is that strikeouts aren't nearly as big of a deal as some people make them out to be, as long as you've established that you'll put up numbers in spite of them, which Dunn has proven. I think people too often still associate strikeouts with guys like Soriano who have no discipline and just swing at everything. The truth is that strikeouts occur with most power hitters, and especially with guys that walk a lot. You take more pitches and you're bound to strikeout more. Look at Aramis. He walks skyrocketed this year....and so did his strikeouts. Strikeouts don't mean you're an impatient hitter. One more thing... it sounds like you think people like Dunn for his on base skills alone. It's like you're leaving out the fact that he hits 40 bombs every year in a low amount of at-bats. Really in it's simplest form, hitting is about 2 things. Getting on base (avoiding outs), and when you do get on base... how many bases you get. Dunn is good at both of those.

point is moot because he doesn't love the game

I don't care what your situation is, I don't think you shouldn't be paying 180-200 million for Mark Teixiera

Wow. Just, wow. What the hell is this? So because they both strike out and hit home runs that means they're the same? Give me a break. Soriano swings at everything. Dunn swings at strikes. There is a huge difference. To imply that they are the same player offensively is pretty ignorant. Pitchers would have their way with him? I assume you're saying they would throw him junk and he'd hack at everything and get himself out like Soriano. That is simply not true, seeing as how he is a walk machine. Dunn strikes out because he swings hard, he doesn't strike out because he swings at junk. What a weak comparison. Incorrect, and that's already been proven false. Ha. Yeah, just keep talking about numbers that actually prove that he's a good hitter. "Yeah guy, just keep talking about Pujols' average, his slugging, his ability to put the ball in play, his patience, his ability to cure cancer. Blah blah blah. I know what I see with my eyes, and that guy is a bum" Either that or people here tend to choose the option of proof/logic instead of selective memory. As if you couldn't make yourself look any worse, you end your post with this Ricciardi gem. Seriously, did you just say that? What evidence do you have, other than what some loud,mputh GM said? By the way, did you know that a few days later Ricciardi admitted that he was just pissed at the callers and that he hadn't really heard anything about Dunn not loving the game? I guess not. So not only are you bringing up an irrelevant point, but it's completely inaccurate as well. Good job. You make a full post full of outdated and inaccurate assumptions and hyperbole, then you go and prove how little you know about a player by saying something like that. The bottom line is that if you don't want a guy because he has a poor average w/RISP, then you need to open your mind a little bit and actually learn about what is valuable.

if you guys think the roberts/peavy ordeals were bad on here, you should check out OH. they've been obsessing over teixeira for like 2 years waiting for this offseason. they're all going crazy. they've got "insiders" being all secretive, roy firestone stirring the pot, people getting texts from freidns saying they saw mark teixeira at the ravens game, etc. it's pretty entertaining. if tex signs somewhere else the first thing i'm going to do is check out OH

i doubt he gets 3 or 4 guaranteed years i think i can guess what hendry/lou's logic is with wanting bradley. just a couple weeks ago Lou talked about wanting to find a way to get Fontenot more playing time. i think they're okay with bradley missing time because that just means they can give fontenot playing time and move derosa to right. i'm not saying i agree with this, i'm just saying i bet that's what they're thinking

if we punch that into the same computer that told meph khalil greene is an .850 OPS guy, he should be good for about a 1.450 and really handsome

Not that it means a lot, but if I'm doing the math right, Bill James has Bradley as about a .287/.390/.488 guy next season

Yes, please get the deal dunn. So we can have the worst outfield defense in recent memory. Other soriano's throwing arm what makes him a acceptable RF? Remember when the Red Sox won the World Series with Manny in left and Trot in right?

From cubs.com good