17 Seconds

but kyle said that they cant do that because of all the pressure they overcame in the minors and blah blah blah

Kyle is heavily denying that

And they weren't supposed to get destroyed and swept. By a team that got swept in the next round. By a team that got swept in the round after that.

Sorry, but Ryan Dempster pitching 1 good inning in 2007 (in a 4 run deficit in the 8th inning) doesn't suddenly mean he's immune to choking. Your arguments are becoming weaker and weaker. Next you're going to tell me how well Ryan Theriot performed in a 7th grade twinkie eating contest.

and all I was asking is why pressure played a role in the the Cubs failing the last two post-seasons, but it didn't cause the BoSox to lose when they had equal if not greater pressure on them? what the hell? it seems like you're just trying to be annoying. last i checked, the 2004 red sox had different players than the 2007 and 2008 cubs. where have i ever said that the amount of pressure determines how a team would react to it? i never said that. every team reatcs differently. seriously, either read the thread or don't make obnoxious posts that could be answered by simply reading what i'm saying.

So your theory is: Play in high school and know scouts are in the stands? No problem. Play in minor leagues knowing your future as a ballplayer is on the line each and every season? No problem. Break into the big leagues, knowing that rookies need to perform immediately or get labeled "AAAA," No problem. Play for a team whose fans really want to win? Oh no, too much pressure! Here's Greg Norman: Play as a young golf pro with no money? No problem. Win tournaments all over the world and become number 1? No problem. Have a 6 stroke lead in the final round at the Masters against Faldo? CHOKE. What about Dan Jansen. US olympic trials? No problem. World Championships? No problem. 1988 Olympics? Fall twice. Both of these guys just wanted it too much and couldn't handle the pressure. Everyone has a breaking point. Chance? I don't think so. The ability to handle pressure is critical in sports. Some athletes are like Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan. Others are like Greg Norman. You clearly haven't read anything in this thread. No one is denying that pressure can affect people negatively. kyle is pretty much saying that players who have gotten through the minors and such to reach the majors and pretty much immune to pressure, since they've faced so much of it already just to get there.

One swing of the bat each series is pretty insignificant when looking at the overall performance of each series. I just don't see how any rational person can say that their performance the last 2 postseasons had nothing to do with not being able to handle pressure. I'm not saying that it was the only reason, I'm just saying that it was obviously a factor. I honestly thought this was pretty much common sense. those 6 games equal like 2 percent of the 330 or so that the cubs played in those two years. i don't see why 6 proves the roster is full of chokers when it performed so well as a whole the other 98 percent of the time. there's more pressure on them in the playoffs, but there's plenty of pressure in the regular season, too. i don't know how much more comes into play in a playoff series, but i can't imagine it's enough to break the camel's back and turn them into stumbling idiots all of a sudden. come on. the playoffs are a completely different beast. everything is amplified.. if you lose 3 games in a row in the regular season, big deal. it's going to happen. you shrug it off and come back. you don't start thinking "holy crap, we're almost eliminated"... because you're not. you have all the time in the world to turn it around. in the playoffs, you lose 3 straight games and it's over. you really can't compare a 6 month long, 162 game regular season to a postseason series where you're forced to win IMMEDIATELY it's pretty much the same reason why kyle's "there was so much pressure on them in the minors and blah blah" argument is weak. you have plenty of time to get it going. if you're good enough, you'll eventually show it and you'll get noticed. I know it's amplified, I said that and I'm sure it played a part in the losses, but I think you're overestimating its effect on them. It's the same reason people blame the umps when the cubs lose or talk about how lucky the cardinals are and why people talk about the curse. They can't accept the fact that the Cubs lost on their own merits. It has to be something bigger. Kevin Gregg throws 12 straight scoreless innings, suffers two bad games and instead of saying, "well, every reliever that's ever pitched has had a 2-game rough stretch," people freak out about kicking him off the team. It's the same principle. but i'm not even saying pressure was the only reason they lost. all i'm saying is it played a role.

I like how Dempster "proved" in one inning of 2007 that he was a good postseason pitcher, but his start in 2008 means nothing. Same with the other guys. I never even labeled them "chokers" or said they were permenently chokers or any garbage like that you're trying to put in my mouth. I said they choked the last 2 seasons. That doesn't mean they can't come out and turn it around this season. I also like how you constantly jump to different arguments when I counter them.

yeah, because a team has to be "magical" and "clutchy gamers" to not choke. awesome. why don't you use some more useless over exaggerated cliches to prove your point. i don't really get what your point is. i never said the cubs couldn't win. i said they haven't in the last 2 seasons, and that pressure played a part of it. and yeah, that team was pretty special. they reminded me of the 2003 cubs.

One swing of the bat each series is pretty insignificant when looking at the overall performance of each series. I just don't see how any rational person can say that their performance the last 2 postseasons had nothing to do with not being able to handle pressure. I'm not saying that it was the only reason, I'm just saying that it was obviously a factor. I honestly thought this was pretty much common sense. those 6 games equal like 2 percent of the 330 or so that the cubs played in those two years. i don't see why 6 proves the roster is full of chokers when it performed so well as a whole the other 98 percent of the time. there's more pressure on them in the playoffs, but there's plenty of pressure in the regular season, too. i don't know how much more comes into play in a playoff series, but i can't imagine it's enough to break the camel's back and turn them into stumbling idiots all of a sudden. come on. the playoffs are a completely different beast. everything is amplified.. if you lose 3 games in a row in the regular season, big deal. it's going to happen. you shrug it off and come back. you don't start thinking "holy crap, we're almost eliminated"... because you're not. you have all the time in the world to turn it around. in the playoffs, you lose 3 straight games and it's over. you really can't compare a 6 month long, 162 game regular season to a postseason series where you're forced to win IMMEDIATELY it's pretty much the same reason why kyle's "there was so much pressure on them in the minors and blah blah" argument is weak. you have plenty of time to get it going. if you're good enough, you'll eventually show it and you'll get noticed.

You are right. There is *way* more pressure in the minor leagues. The difference between performing in the playoffs and not is the way a few fans and writers think of you for a few years until you are retired and they all forget. The difference between performing in Ranch Cucamonga and not changes the path of your entire life. Your whole comparison is weak. In the minors you have more than 3 games to prove yourself. In the playoffs it's do die immediately. Just a litttttttle bit more urgency in the playoffs, as compared to a full season worth of playing time. Just a tad

One swing of the bat each series is pretty insignificant when looking at the overall performance of each series. I just don't see how any rational person can say that their performance the last 2 postseasons had nothing to do with not being able to handle pressure. I'm not saying that it was the only reason, I'm just saying that it was obviously a factor. I honestly thought this was pretty much common sense.

What position is ridiculous? That the Cubs have extra pressure on them in the postseason? Seriously, that's ridiculous?

Go ask some athletes their opinion. Should you ever actually meet one, you'll learn why your stance is ridiculous. Derrek Lee was born in Sacramento, California. I don't know his background, but presumably he grew up playing baseball and other sports. He was pretty good at baseball, and as time wore on the accolades starting piling up. Scouts came around. Now there's a chance that he could actually play professional baseball for a living, but he has to perform well in front of them. If he doesn't, he goes to college on some mediocre athletic scholarship and goes off to be a high-school gym teacher for $50k/year for the rest of his life? That pressure he handles just fine. He gets his signing bonus, which is nice but probably runs out pretty fast. After a decent but not spectacular rookie ball season, he's 19 and in Ranch Cucamonga of the Cal League. If he doesn't perform well this season, he's on his way to bust status really fast. If he does, he's still on the major-league tract and might make millions of dollar some day, revolutionizing life for his children and family for generations. That pressure he handles just fine. In 1997 and 1998 with the Padres and Marlins, he's got to prove he can hit big-league pitching, all while learning to live the big-league lifestyle, which is incredibly stressful. If he doesn't hit, he's going to get labeled a AAAA player and spend the rest of his life bouncing around the minors and watching people around him live the dream he's not quite good enough to reach. He handles that pressure just fine. In 2003, he's an established big-league player. But now he's in the playoffs. He's got national TV, the chance to move on in the postseason and live every player's dream. He knows reputations are made in the playoffs that are hard to push away. He handles that pressure just fine. Later in 2003, he's in the World Series now. He's playing in Yankee Freaking Stadium for Game 1 of the World Series in New York City, the Media Capital of the World. He handles that pressure just fine and goes 1-for-4 in game 1. Now it's 2007, and he recently signed a deal with the Cubs. His team rallied from a dismal season to win a cheap division title, and now they face another division winner with five more wins. He's got a World Series ring and has played in three postseason series to this point. But get this, the fans he performs in front of really, really want his team to win, unlike all the other times he's played in front of fans. And the media has asked a few questions that imply they might not win. Oh noes, the pressure is too much now! He can't handle it! Congrats. You just set the record for most words typed without actually making any points. Like I said before... if you're going to pretend like there isn't more pressure on the Cubs and that they didn't choke at all in the last 2 postseasons, then there's nothing more to say. It's like arguing with somebody who insists that the sky isn't blue. BTW, Derrek Lee hit well in the last 2 postseasons.

Have anything that proves that Megan Fox is hotter than Rosie O'Donnell?

unbelievable. the cubs have no more pressure on them than other teams. got it. And if they didn't choke last season, then can you explain to me why they completely failed to show up? It's not like they just lost. It's not even like they got blown out. They completely and 100% didn't show up. So for 6 straight games, they looked terrified and could do NOTHING right. Are you one of those people who say "they just picked a bad time to play poorly"?

If the Cubs' health had been as good as the Cards health all season, we'd be like 5 games up on them.

Ha, that's not what I said at all, but okay. Of course every team deals with that stuff, just not on the level of the Cubs. And I never said anything about the booing costing them anything. It was just an example of the panic mentality that surrounds this team when the playoffs start. You know exactly what I meant, you just are being obnoxious. So let me get this straight. You don't think the Cubs have extra pressure on them in the postseason, and you don't think they choked at all in the past 2 seasons. Are those 2 statements correct? If either of them are, you're not at all worth talking to. They are human beings. I'm sorry that not everything can be computed and figured out on paper.

Pressure induced by Cubs-fan-specific desire tow in? Absolutely not. Not even a little. You vastly overestimate: 1) How much players care about fans. 2) How different Cubs fans are from other fans. I'm not just talking about fans. It comes from everywhere. You know perfectly well that every time the Cubs get into the playoffs, there is going to be non-stop talk of "can they do it?", "will they choke?", "how will they blow it this year?" etc. The players are asked about it constantly. The media talks about it constantly. The players are forced to deal with garbage questions like "do you believe in curses?" and other nonsense. It's a circus. Everybody is watching them and waiting for them to fail. The minute one bad thing happens, the fans start booing and everybody says "here we go". It's a completely different animal. We saw it last season. The second Loney hit that grand slam, the stadium went completely lifeless for the rest of the series... even though they were only down 2 runs in the first game. Everyone was waiting for them to fail. They expected it. You'd have to be absolutely nuts to believe that playing in the postseason with the Cubs doesn't bring more pressure than playing in the postseason for a team like the Angels or Braves. The only thing that could compare was pre-2004 Boston.

I'm telling you that you are absolutely, positively, 100% delusional on this subject if you think that athletes give one whit of care how much the fans want the team to win. Are you being serious right now? That's beyond ignorant. They aren't robots. You're in 100% denial if you think that the postseason pressure of the Cubs isn't felt by the players.

pretty constructive

So your theory is: Play in high school and know scouts are in the stands? No problem. Play in minor leagues knowing your future as a ballplayer is on the line each and every season? No problem. Break into the big leagues, knowing that rookies need to perform immediately or get labeled "AAAA," No problem. Play for a team whose fans really want to win? Oh no, too much pressure! There's a difference between pressure coming from yourself and pressure coming from millions of rabid fans who are ready to label you satan if you don't perform in the biggest situations. I mean, are you really going to pretend like the Cubs getting swept the last 2 seasons had absolutely nothing to do with pressure and choking? Seeing as how Arizona and LA had just as much "pressure," the answer is pressure had the least to do with it. Umm, either that or they handled the pressure better, which is the whole point of this thread. Also, those teams did not have as much pressure on them as the Cubs. Not even close. Are you telling me you don't think the Cubs choked at all in the past 2 postseasons?

literally 2 hours ago i heard somebody on mlb network saying that the white sox just acquired "a superstar caliber hitter", in those exact words Congratulations, you got the wrong network. I'm all for ESPN bashing but they've never panned Alex Rios out to be some sort of superstar. Never. Just because ONE GUY on MLB Network said he's a "superstar caliber player" definitely doesn't mean that and basically everyone else in national sports TV has never said Rios is that good. Now if he puts up those numbers from 2-3 years ago in CF for the Sox, that's a real steal. I'm not a big Rios fan but that contract definitely isn't as bad when he's placed in CF. My bad, I forgot that ESPN is soooo much better than MLB Network. Every ESPN on-air employee is very knowledgable, right? BBTN is pretty much brilliant. John Kruk is a mastermind and Fernando Vina knows more than everyone on this board combined. I feel foolish for comparing them to those jokers over at MLBN. I'm aware that I said MLBN. MLB Network, ESPN, etc. It's all the same garbage. I gave that as an example because it was the most recent. Unless you watch ESPN 24/7 and have a superhuman memory, that's a pretty ridiculous claim to make. Making that kind of argument is pointless, to boot. You can say "they never do that" as many times as you want. I know what I've seen and heard. Don't tell me what I do and do not hear. He never said ESPN was great. You entire first paragraph is an argument against something never said and a waste of time. You made the claim that ESPN, etc made Rios out to be a superstar, but haven't shown anything to support that and public opinion is against you (no one here seems to have a memory of such things, except you). Seems unlikely that you're right and everyone else is wrong on this point. He called me out on getting the wrong network, as if MLBN would say something like that, but ESPN is way above it or something. If that's not what he was saying, then pointing out that I "got the wrong network" was useless. I'm fully aware that they're different networks, and he's fully aware that my argument wasn't based on ESPN alone. They're both just examples. And how the hell am I supposed to provide proof of what I said? Sorry, I don't tape ESPN 24/7 in case I need to prove that they said something. Asking me to prove something that's impossible to prove is a weak argument. Whatever, I know what I've heard. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop telling me that I haven't.

i like the usage of the word "dunk" though. it paints the picture perfectly

I want no part of that contract. It's atrocious