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By the way Kyle, you kept using the "you've never met an athlete" argument. Well let me ask you this.. have you ever BEEN an athlete? I mean, have you ever played a team sport? If you did, you'd know that pressure can mount and snowball. Just because you're feeling pressure doesn't mean it's automatically going to effect you right away, or at all. This doesn't even just go for sports. You can be handling pressure fine, and then something bad happens, and it snowballs. Have you ever heard the expression "trying too hard"? Yeah, well sometimes when things start going wrong, you start trying too hard and it makes it worse. This is one of those things that can't be broken down by "science". You know, one of those human things.

"Common sense" is an almost universal code for "thing that is proven wrong by logic and science that I don't want to let go of." lol science go kyle go

im starting to think imb is right. you're just trolling me. i don't think anyone can possibly be this bizarre. you're breaking this down wayyyy too far, yet at the same time you've being completely simplistic and myopic about it all. it's like the whole idea of pressure and not being able to fully understand it is getting inside your head and tearing you apart. not evenything in life can be broken down to the 735th degree and looked at in fragments, kyle (do they do that in harry potter or something?). i could see you getting dumped by a girl and then spending 10 straight hours crafting a massive flow chart that breaks down what may have happened and why.

Except Derrek Lee. He must not be a good teammate, because he didn't let the pressure get to him. yeah, because there are never exceptions to anything in life, ever.

anymore obnoxious posts? i know you've got a few in store. whatever dude, keep pretending that the cubs just got really unlucky last season and that pressure had nothing to do with it. keep pretending that players are robots and that everything that happens on the field can be calculated in a computer. anybody with common sense who watched this team the last 2 years in the playoffs could see that they were really feeling the pressure.

More nonsense. I'm stunned. Not once have I defined any players as specifically being chokers. Actually, I've repeatedly said otherwise Perhaps you'd understand if I used some awesome Harry Potter analogies So your argument is that the team as a whole chokes, but not the players? This just keeps getting weirder. despite what you want to believe, it's a team sport.

and all I was asking is why pressure played a role in the the Cubs failing the last two post-seasons, but it didn't cause the BoSox to lose when they had equal if not greater pressure on them? what the hell? it seems like you're just trying to be annoying. last i checked, the 2004 red sox had different players than the 2007 and 2008 cubs. where have i ever said that the amount of pressure determines how a team would react to it? i never said that. every team reatcs differently. seriously, either read the thread or don't make obnoxious posts that could be answered by simply reading what i'm saying. I'm trying to figure out what YOUR point is, which, at this point, seems to be "There is this nebulous thing called pressure that, at times, affects some players, but not always, and not the same players each time." i think maybe you dont understand what pressure is

Probably because most people here dislike me and have no interest in defending me if they agree Any other hard hitting questions? Or would you rather just keep taking personal shots at me instead of sticking to the argument.

Then why did someone try to explain the pressure on the Cubs during the last five years as them having expectations to win? It was specifically said that they won in 2003 NLDS because nobody expected them to, but then lost recently because the expectations put too much pressure on them. Stop asking me about what other people said

More nonsense. I'm stunned. Not once have I defined any players as specifically being chokers. Actually, I've repeatedly said otherwise Perhaps you'd understand if I used some awesome Harry Potter analogies

And they weren't supposed to get destroyed and swept. By a team that got swept in the next round. By a team that got swept in the round after that. So the 2007 Cubs couldn't handle the pressure of being expected to perform competently but lose the series? The more you examine it, the more bizarre this pressure theory gets. You don't have to be expected to win to have pressure on you. Keep digging

I'm saying your definition of pressure seems to coincide perfectly with when you really want the team to win. Because that's what this is all about: You projecting your emotions onto professional athletes. Now you're not even making sense. Your arguments have now gone from weak to complete nonsense

Sorry, but Ryan Dempster pitching 1 good inning in 2007 (in a 4 run deficit in the 8th inning) doesn't suddenly mean he's immune to choking. Your arguments are becoming weaker and weaker. Next you're going to tell me how well Ryan Theriot performed in a 7th grade twinkie eating contest. Your definition of what is and is not an acceptable "pressure" situation seems to be entirely cherrypicked and have no coherent logic behind it. so you're saying that pitching an inning in relief in the 8th inning when your team is trailing by 4 runs is the same as starting the first game of the playoffs? awesome. i dont even care though, it doesn't even matter. your argument was weak from the beginning... pretending that one inning of pitching suddenly proves something about a player.

but kyle said that they cant do that because of all the pressure they overcame in the minors and blah blah blah

Kyle is heavily denying that

And they weren't supposed to get destroyed and swept. By a team that got swept in the next round. By a team that got swept in the round after that.

Sorry, but Ryan Dempster pitching 1 good inning in 2007 (in a 4 run deficit in the 8th inning) doesn't suddenly mean he's immune to choking. Your arguments are becoming weaker and weaker. Next you're going to tell me how well Ryan Theriot performed in a 7th grade twinkie eating contest.

and all I was asking is why pressure played a role in the the Cubs failing the last two post-seasons, but it didn't cause the BoSox to lose when they had equal if not greater pressure on them? what the hell? it seems like you're just trying to be annoying. last i checked, the 2004 red sox had different players than the 2007 and 2008 cubs. where have i ever said that the amount of pressure determines how a team would react to it? i never said that. every team reatcs differently. seriously, either read the thread or don't make obnoxious posts that could be answered by simply reading what i'm saying.

So your theory is: Play in high school and know scouts are in the stands? No problem. Play in minor leagues knowing your future as a ballplayer is on the line each and every season? No problem. Break into the big leagues, knowing that rookies need to perform immediately or get labeled "AAAA," No problem. Play for a team whose fans really want to win? Oh no, too much pressure! Here's Greg Norman: Play as a young golf pro with no money? No problem. Win tournaments all over the world and become number 1? No problem. Have a 6 stroke lead in the final round at the Masters against Faldo? CHOKE. What about Dan Jansen. US olympic trials? No problem. World Championships? No problem. 1988 Olympics? Fall twice. Both of these guys just wanted it too much and couldn't handle the pressure. Everyone has a breaking point. Chance? I don't think so. The ability to handle pressure is critical in sports. Some athletes are like Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan. Others are like Greg Norman. You clearly haven't read anything in this thread. No one is denying that pressure can affect people negatively. kyle is pretty much saying that players who have gotten through the minors and such to reach the majors and pretty much immune to pressure, since they've faced so much of it already just to get there.

One swing of the bat each series is pretty insignificant when looking at the overall performance of each series. I just don't see how any rational person can say that their performance the last 2 postseasons had nothing to do with not being able to handle pressure. I'm not saying that it was the only reason, I'm just saying that it was obviously a factor. I honestly thought this was pretty much common sense. those 6 games equal like 2 percent of the 330 or so that the cubs played in those two years. i don't see why 6 proves the roster is full of chokers when it performed so well as a whole the other 98 percent of the time. there's more pressure on them in the playoffs, but there's plenty of pressure in the regular season, too. i don't know how much more comes into play in a playoff series, but i can't imagine it's enough to break the camel's back and turn them into stumbling idiots all of a sudden. come on. the playoffs are a completely different beast. everything is amplified.. if you lose 3 games in a row in the regular season, big deal. it's going to happen. you shrug it off and come back. you don't start thinking "holy crap, we're almost eliminated"... because you're not. you have all the time in the world to turn it around. in the playoffs, you lose 3 straight games and it's over. you really can't compare a 6 month long, 162 game regular season to a postseason series where you're forced to win IMMEDIATELY it's pretty much the same reason why kyle's "there was so much pressure on them in the minors and blah blah" argument is weak. you have plenty of time to get it going. if you're good enough, you'll eventually show it and you'll get noticed. I know it's amplified, I said that and I'm sure it played a part in the losses, but I think you're overestimating its effect on them. It's the same reason people blame the umps when the cubs lose or talk about how lucky the cardinals are and why people talk about the curse. They can't accept the fact that the Cubs lost on their own merits. It has to be something bigger. Kevin Gregg throws 12 straight scoreless innings, suffers two bad games and instead of saying, "well, every reliever that's ever pitched has had a 2-game rough stretch," people freak out about kicking him off the team. It's the same principle. but i'm not even saying pressure was the only reason they lost. all i'm saying is it played a role.

I like how Dempster "proved" in one inning of 2007 that he was a good postseason pitcher, but his start in 2008 means nothing. Same with the other guys. I never even labeled them "chokers" or said they were permenently chokers or any garbage like that you're trying to put in my mouth. I said they choked the last 2 seasons. That doesn't mean they can't come out and turn it around this season. I also like how you constantly jump to different arguments when I counter them.

yeah, because a team has to be "magical" and "clutchy gamers" to not choke. awesome. why don't you use some more useless over exaggerated cliches to prove your point. i don't really get what your point is. i never said the cubs couldn't win. i said they haven't in the last 2 seasons, and that pressure played a part of it. and yeah, that team was pretty special. they reminded me of the 2003 cubs.

One swing of the bat each series is pretty insignificant when looking at the overall performance of each series. I just don't see how any rational person can say that their performance the last 2 postseasons had nothing to do with not being able to handle pressure. I'm not saying that it was the only reason, I'm just saying that it was obviously a factor. I honestly thought this was pretty much common sense. those 6 games equal like 2 percent of the 330 or so that the cubs played in those two years. i don't see why 6 proves the roster is full of chokers when it performed so well as a whole the other 98 percent of the time. there's more pressure on them in the playoffs, but there's plenty of pressure in the regular season, too. i don't know how much more comes into play in a playoff series, but i can't imagine it's enough to break the camel's back and turn them into stumbling idiots all of a sudden. come on. the playoffs are a completely different beast. everything is amplified.. if you lose 3 games in a row in the regular season, big deal. it's going to happen. you shrug it off and come back. you don't start thinking "holy crap, we're almost eliminated"... because you're not. you have all the time in the world to turn it around. in the playoffs, you lose 3 straight games and it's over. you really can't compare a 6 month long, 162 game regular season to a postseason series where you're forced to win IMMEDIATELY it's pretty much the same reason why kyle's "there was so much pressure on them in the minors and blah blah" argument is weak. you have plenty of time to get it going. if you're good enough, you'll eventually show it and you'll get noticed.

You are right. There is *way* more pressure in the minor leagues. The difference between performing in the playoffs and not is the way a few fans and writers think of you for a few years until you are retired and they all forget. The difference between performing in Ranch Cucamonga and not changes the path of your entire life. Your whole comparison is weak. In the minors you have more than 3 games to prove yourself. In the playoffs it's do die immediately. Just a litttttttle bit more urgency in the playoffs, as compared to a full season worth of playing time. Just a tad

One swing of the bat each series is pretty insignificant when looking at the overall performance of each series. I just don't see how any rational person can say that their performance the last 2 postseasons had nothing to do with not being able to handle pressure. I'm not saying that it was the only reason, I'm just saying that it was obviously a factor. I honestly thought this was pretty much common sense.