UK1679666180

God bless late movement. :wink:

Price is going to make a decent #4 starter next year.

As someone who was emotionally invested in both, does this feel like 2003 to you as much as it does to me? Very much so, this feels worse than '03 for me just b/c it might be happening again and I didn't think I would experience this roller coaster again without something positive happening between these horrific events. I've put too much into this game to have it continually kick me in the groin at every level of this game.

I hate [expletive] baseball.

Wilken would be in that running as well. Hendry has earned a multi-year deal as Bruce had mentioned the positives outweigh the negatives. There are some flaws with him (free agent age regression is one of my main beefs still), hopefully those exposed flaws early in his tenure have become items to have been learned from. He really got me on board this year with the Edmonds, Johnson, and Harden acquisitions. I was so/so on him at best until then, thinking he merely got lucky with the Aram and Nomar trades. My biggest concern about him was listed upthread, as I think he gives his manager far too much say in player acqusitions sometimes. That's what a non-control freak GM does as far as listening to his manager, good or bad.

Wilken would be in that running as well. Hendry has earned a multi-year deal as Bruce had mentioned the positives outweigh the negatives. There are some flaws with him (free agent age regression is one of my main beefs still), hopefully those exposed flaws early in his tenure have become items to have been learned from.

Bandwagoner. Feel our pain...etc. Just have Shields handle this. This is '03 Game 6 all over again.

Baseball hates me.

I wish TB would play tomorrow with how they are hitting.

His changeup was his out pitch if I remember correctly.

He has no bat speed whatsoever and neither has Drew. Their offense is Pedroia, Youkilis, and Bay right now with the rest not doing a lick. The difference is OPS is .917 to .738. Utley was the closest player to a .917 OPS at .915. Fukudome had a .738. That's quite a difference.

The Rays basically silenced that crowd with that 3rd inning, Lester had to keep going to his FB b/c he fell behind many of the RH'ed hitters and he didn't locate his FB well in those counts, although Evan's was on 2-2 FB that was up and middle when it was supposed to be low and away. I'm glad Garza had enough command of his FB to keep them guessing as far as which side of the plate that FB is going to be. Boston's bats looked a tick slow tonight. It'll be interesting tomorrow as both teams will have completly opposite styles of pitchers compared to today with Wakefield and his obvious knucleball and Sonnastine who seldom touches 90 but locates well with a good curve, Sonnanstine prob. has the biggest balls of any Rays pitchers too.

I'd sign Tex before trading away DLee, though. If you trade Lee and don't sign Tex, then what? Adam Dunn? Micah Hoffpauir. :thumbsup:

There's definitely a reason to question shoulder injuries and their diagnosis of those injuries. Hopefully, he passes that physical and the Cubs put Harden on Maddux-like pitch counts and skip a few starts throughout the year with all of the starters.

This is nonsense. Every team beats up on bad pitching. The Cubs actually did a very nice job of making good pitchers work and had exactly the kind of offense to beat these pitchers featuring a deep and patient lineup. You keep pretending there are hitters out there who hit 95 mph fastballs on the black of the outside corner to right field. Guess what? They aren't out there. That's why these pitchers are successful. There are, even the Cubs have a few. Derosa, Theriot, and Soto. But when the core of the offense falls into the habit of tryiong to pull everything and not go to RF, you can see when they struggle and why they are struggling.

Yeah, one bad pitch, after a series of very good ones that should have ended the inning. You can't disregard circumstance. this is a stupid debate. Zambrano's pitch was a bad one. every pitcher is always responsible for every bad pitch he makes, so long as he is physically sound (ie healthy enough to pitch and not pitching past obvious mechanical breakdown). no fact about the external circumstances in which he is pitching qualifies as an excuse. so, that particular pitch was a failure by Zambrano. but the NET performance by Zambrano was nevertheless NOT a failure, because the expected runs allowed by his performance was still a figure low enough to win. (it's irrelevant what the actual # of runs scored was) Agreed.

I'm torn between rooting for the Red Sox or the Angels. The Rays matchup better against the Angels, but have HFA against Boston and have handled them at the Trop.

That's why I wanted to see the Sox over the Twins. Sonnanstine has no fear at all and it showed tonight, Floyd was off today and TB took advantage of it. TB is the better all-around team and it showed.

Actually, scoring more runs than your opponent does. Oddly, scoring runs factors into that. I completely agree... but our starting pitching did the job more or less... our offense and defense killed us. Regardless, this team was built to win it all... Soriano is wrong. The starting pitching was awful. 15.1IP 15H 10ER 12BB 13K That's the combined line of the 3 starters. Take out Dempster's start and Harden/Zambrano did fine... but again... it still doesn't make a difference, who thought Dempster was going to bad? I had nothing but confidence in him... The argument at hand is that Soriano said we weren't built for a short series, and that is false. WE WERE BUILT FOR IT... just didn't execute. So now it's down to Z and Harden doing well... 11.2IP 11H 6ER 5BB 11K That's an era of 4.6, that ain't going to get it done either. Offensively, they're built for beating up on bad to medicore pitching staffs. Pitching, they're close to where they need to be for short-series but like most teams they lack a true ace, if Harden could stay healthy, it would be him. Look at LA. Combined over the course of the year, I would take Lowe, Billingsley and Kuroda over the Cubs 3. Although several factors loom over next year (Lowe's age, Z's workload, and Harden's health, Dempster's regression). Let be honest Z never had a shot at anything but failure in his start. His defense let him down. Z never had a shot at anything b/c of the defense and Billingsley pitching great, but he had 2 outs with the bases loaded with only two runs and gave up the bases clearing DB which brought that total to 5. He didn't make the pitches when he had to either. This is utter tripe Ping. He made the pitches 3 times when he needed to. He threw 3 double play balls that inning and due to the hit and run and defensive incompetence he got 0 outs from them. Yet, show me that pitch to Martin and where that was located and I'll show you a 3 run double. Not taking into account that it was what? his 30th pitch? That's like blaming a pitcher for getting lit up in the 9th after throwing 150 pitches thru 8. He was set up to fail. He shouldn't have been out there. Bottom line, he still gave up 1 hit to the last 7 hitters he faced in the 2nd. That should be good enough every time. I'm not blaming Z for the loss, that was on the offense and defense. But, it was still a bad pitch regardless of circumstance.

You should differentiate power RH'ed arms as well.

They would do that in a second b/c they would be getting someone with production in return, unlike the Cubs.

They didn't wear or break down at the end of the year like Harden and Z. They're more likely to stay healthy next year, Lowe and Billingsley will likely be better than Z and prob. Dempster. How did Harden wear down at the end of the year? Because he gave up 3 runs in Game 3? Zambrano was terrible after coming back from the injury, and then he threw a good game in game 2. It seems you're placing a lot of weight on how these guys threw in the NLDS rather than their body of work. In a vaccuum you'd trade our 3 for their 3? Going to back Z in Game 2. You're using hypotheticals for that situation when none exist, he had 2 outs and the bases loaded and could not retire Martin. I'm not asking him to be perfect but I'm not to cover up the fact he made a bad pitch to Martin after the Cubs made some errors either. Harden was injured in Sept. in his shoulder and has a history of injuries, that's almost the definition of wearing down. Same thing for Z, he was injured late in the year and then came back late to throw the no-hitter and beyond the no-hitter was not good at all. You're using hypotheticals for that situation when none exist, he had 2 outs and the bases loaded and could not retire Martin. Trade? Long-term or short-term, Lowe is 35yo. For next year, I would definitely take Lowe, Billingsley, Kuroda, & Kershaw over Z, Harden, Dempster, and Lilly and despite some concerns with Lowe. Also, I would take the top 3 as well over the Cubs top 3 b/c even though the reward is prob. greater for the Cubs 3, the risk for less production is greater with the Cubs as well (whether it be Harden's health, Z's cont'd regression, and how will Dempster the second year after severe increased usage).

They didn't wear or break down at the end of the year like Harden and Z. They're more likely to stay healthy next year, Lowe and Billingsley will likely be better than Z and prob. Dempster.

Actually, scoring more runs than your opponent does. Oddly, scoring runs factors into that. I completely agree... but our starting pitching did the job more or less... our offense and defense killed us. Regardless, this team was built to win it all... Soriano is wrong. The starting pitching was awful. 15.1IP 15H 10ER 12BB 13K That's the combined line of the 3 starters. Take out Dempster's start and Harden/Zambrano did fine... but again... it still doesn't make a difference, who thought Dempster was going to bad? I had nothing but confidence in him... The argument at hand is that Soriano said we weren't built for a short series, and that is false. WE WERE BUILT FOR IT... just didn't execute. So now it's down to Z and Harden doing well... 11.2IP 11H 6ER 5BB 11K That's an era of 4.6, that ain't going to get it done either. Offensively, they're built for beating up on bad to medicore pitching staffs. Pitching, they're close to where they need to be for short-series but like most teams they lack a true ace, if Harden could stay healthy, it would be him. Look at LA. Combined over the course of the year, I would take Lowe, Billingsley and Kuroda over the Cubs 3. Although several factors loom over next year (Lowe's age, Z's workload, and Harden's health, Dempster's regression). Let be honest Z never had a shot at anything but failure in his start. His defense let him down. Z never had a shot at anything b/c of the defense and Billingsley pitching great, but he had 2 outs with the bases loaded with only two runs and gave up the bases clearing DB which brought that total to 5. He didn't make the pitches when he had to either. This is utter tripe Ping. He made the pitches 3 times when he needed to. He threw 3 double play balls that inning and due to the hit and run and defensive incompetence he got 0 outs from them. Yet, show me that pitch to Martin and where that was located and I'll show you a 3 run double.

Actually, scoring more runs than your opponent does. Oddly, scoring runs factors into that. I completely agree... but our starting pitching did the job more or less... our offense and defense killed us. Regardless, this team was built to win it all... Soriano is wrong. The starting pitching was awful. 15.1IP 15H 10ER 12BB 13K That's the combined line of the 3 starters. Take out Dempster's start and Harden/Zambrano did fine... but again... it still doesn't make a difference, who thought Dempster was going to bad? I had nothing but confidence in him... The argument at hand is that Soriano said we weren't built for a short series, and that is false. WE WERE BUILT FOR IT... just didn't execute. So now it's down to Z and Harden doing well... 11.2IP 11H 6ER 5BB 11K That's an era of 4.6, that ain't going to get it done either. Offensively, they're built for beating up on bad to medicore pitching staffs. Pitching, they're close to where they need to be for short-series but like most teams they lack a true ace, if Harden could stay healthy, it would be him. Look at LA. Combined over the course of the year, I would take Lowe, Billingsley and Kuroda over the Cubs 3. Although several factors loom over next year (Lowe's age, Z's workload, and Harden's health, Dempster's regression). Let be honest Z never had a shot at anything but failure in his start. His defense let him down. Z never had a shot at anything b/c of the defense and Billingsley pitching great, but he had 2 outs with the bases loaded with only two runs in and gave up the bases clearing DB which brought that total to 5. He didn't make the pitches when he had to either.