CubsWin

Wow, if true, wait till next next year. Yeah, no kidding. Talk about an uphill battle.

I think his point with Prior is he was the most major league ready SP prospect to come out of college in the last 50 yrs if not ever. Yeah, but you can't just take away from the system because they were smart enough to draft him, or smart enough to trade for Murton. If Murton doesn't count, then we should be allowed to count Brendan Harris, Dontrelle Willis, etc. well lets just count everyone that ever played 1 game in our system as "being developed by our system." I never claimed they were developed by the Cubs' system. Though it is highly likely that both did receive coaching and adjustments along the way so Cubs instructors shouldn't be discounted completely. I called them products of the Cubs' system. Both players made their major league debuts after having played in the Cubs minor league system. Thus, they are products of it and no longer in it. Thats all I was saying.

get ready to defend yourself. Nah. I've seen a lot of posters make similar assessments of late. Well, I'll agree it is not great, especially after producing major league caliber players like Murton and Cedeno just last season. It is thin at top end talent like Pie and Pawelek and maybe Guzman, but it has depth with other quality players that have a shot like EPatt, Harvey, Dopirak, Pinto, Marshall, Marmol, Nolasco, Gallagher and many others. They'll probably rank in the middle of the pack after Murton and Cedeno joined the big club this season. If middle of the pack equals "suks" to you. That's fine. To me, this is the bottom part of their cycle. Their system has been fairly productive of late (Choi, B. Hill, Prior, Zambrano, Harris, Dubois, R. Hill, Murton, Cedeno, Pie) and needs to restock itself over the next couple of years. They've done it before. They can do it again. Prior and Murton weren't products of our farm system. In the same way that ROY Huston Street isn't a product of the A's farm system. But the point I was making is that they are no longer in the system. If Prior and Murton were still in the minors, the Cubs system would be ranked a lot higher next season. :wink:

get ready to defend yourself. Nah. I've seen a lot of posters make similar assessments of late. Well, I'll agree it is not great, especially after producing major league caliber players like Murton and Cedeno just last season. It is thin at top end talent like Pie and Pawelek and maybe Guzman, but it has depth with other quality players that have a shot like EPatt, Harvey, Dopirak, Pinto, Marshall, Marmol, Nolasco, Gallagher and many others. They'll probably rank in the middle of the pack after Murton and Cedeno joined the big club this season. If middle of the pack equals "suks" to you. That's fine. To me, this is the bottom part of their cycle. Their system has been fairly productive of late (Choi, B. Hill, Prior, Zambrano, Harris, Dubois, R. Hill, Murton, Cedeno, Pie) and needs to restock itself over the next couple of years. They've done it before. They can do it again.

Careful using the word rumblings and California in the same sentence. For those of us that live out here, its a little disconcerting. :wink: In the same vein, if the Cubs signed Brian Giles this off season, how high would the needle jump if there was a Richter Scale outside Wrigley Field? And who's fault would it be if they let him go to the Cardinals? :oops: Okay, I'll stop now.

I dispised Bobby Murcer (NY thing) more than any player and the Cubs traded my favorite player (Madlock) for him. That was my all-time Cub transaction low point I'm assuming you know the reason why the Cubs traded Madlock for Murcer. If you don't know the reason, your all-time Cub transaction low point is about to get a little lower...

And so would I. But the point is, that this thread is filled with fans freakin' out before anything like that as happened. There was no mention of money in the article. There was no mention of giving him a starting job. And Rosenthal's article doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are lots of other articles that are talking about Cedeno being penciled in the starting line-up somewhere, especially if Walker is traded. So why ignore all the other evidence just to attack Hendry in this thread? You are all welcome to write whatever you want. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just asking why? What is the reasoning because I don't understand how 6 pages of complaints and attacks could be justified over something that hasn't happened, and, if you read other articles, probably won't happen. It seems like people are eager to trash the team they love without really having a reason. But that doesn't make any sense either. So they must have a good reason, and I'm just trying to understand what that is. If you can't understand the paranoia of the fanbase in creating a 6 page thread on what might happen but isn't close to being confirmed, just look at the Cubs of 05 and where and how Dusty used Neifi. The attacks and complaints are coming from the mere subconcious thoughts of havning neifi and Dusty on the same roster. Sure people could wait, but the mere mention of the name neifi apart from anything even baseball or "perez" related makes me push a panic button after last year. How is it so difficult for you to understand? Well, I'm beginning to understand. You used the words paranoia and subconscious. That is shedding some light for me. I guess people are still angry that things didn't work out the way they wanted them to are taking this opportunity to vent some more. That's fine with me. I'm just different. I tend to put the past in the past. I express my anger and then move on. I also choose to try to understand things from many angles before expressing an opinion. Since I'm different, I was just endeavoring to understand the reasons for such a reaction to something that hasn't happened and may never happen. Cool?

Neifi has no business on our baseball team ever. You can find someone better, cheaper, younger, or all of the above really easily. He never should've been signed in '04, he never should've been retained, and we shouldn't be talking about bringing him back. I understand that is how you feel. I'm asking why. I don't understand how he could be considered to be so utterly worthless. Can you help me understand? Neifi is utterly worthless offensively. This season, as bad as he was, is one of (if not the) best of his career. Neifi should never be an option to start for a period of time, he's too terrible on offense. This is a catch-22, because Neifi's only value is playing good defense, which is mitigated when he's in a bench role. Cubbieinexile articulated this point very well earlier. Neifi isn't young, he has little to no upside. His production can be replaced very very easily. The only way he should be on a team of the Cubs' caliber is if they are absolutely ravaged by injuries(Think Nomar and Cedeno going down for the season) and he should be brought in as a backup to some other alternative(trade, younger signing, minor leaguer already in the system, etc.). Just to make sure I'm understanding you. You are saying that offensively, he worse than almost every other back-up SS in the major leagues, thus being utterly worthless. And that his above average defense doesn't count because he would be coming off the bench. He is also older and has no upside. Did I miss anything?

Who said that? I believe most are saying that dusty can't be trusted to start Cedeno over Neifi, so Neifi wouldn't be just a bench player. Neifi off the bench is a solid addition to our team (defensively and offensively with limited ABs). neifi starting is an offensive nightmare, especially when dusty throws him in front of lee and ramirez in the lineup. Look a couple of posts above this one for your answer.

Neifi has no business on our baseball team ever. You can find someone better, cheaper, younger, or all of the above really easily. He never should've been signed in '04, he never should've been retained, and we shouldn't be talking about bringing him back. I understand that is how you feel. I'm asking why. I don't understand how he could be considered to be so utterly worthless. Can you help me understand?

And so would I. But the point is, that this thread is filled with fans freakin' out before anything like that as happened. There was no mention of money in the article. There was no mention of giving him a starting job. And Rosenthal's article doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are lots of other articles that are talking about Cedeno being penciled in the starting line-up somewhere, especially if Walker is traded. So why ignore all the other evidence just to attack Hendry in this thread? You are all welcome to write whatever you want. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just asking why? What is the reasoning because I don't understand how 6 pages of complaints and attacks could be justified over something that hasn't happened, and, if you read other articles, probably won't happen. It seems like people are eager to trash the team they love without really having a reason. But that doesn't make any sense either. So they must have a good reason, and I'm just trying to understand what that is.

I agree that Dusty's choices of who to start baffle me sometimes, but no one can say that when Hendry signed Neifi the previous two times that he did it with the intention that he would be starting. No one. Go back and read through the comments. They were some that attack Hendry for "signing Neifi not once, but twice", as if he intended him to start or as if he had no business being on any baseball team anywhere. I'm not making this up. I'm just reading it.

The Rays boy wonder Andrew Freidman was discussing a 6-year deal with Baldelli before it was put on the back-burner until the GM/Manager searches were complete. I wouldn't be surprised if he signs a long-term deal in Tampa this winter. Let's see. In TB's outfield, the potential guys who could be seeing action there next season includes: Delmon Young (depending on what ownership decides) Jonny Gomes Joey Gathright Rocco Baldelli Aubrey Huff Carl Crawford Interesting. Combine that with the talk that they might move BJ Upton into the OF and the fact that Elijah Dukes could do well enough in AAA to merit a callup at some point next season, they have a decidedly bizarre (yet enviable) OF situation. I'd jump all over Baldelli for some pitching. It would take a lot to get him, but coming off his injury, he may be more available than alot of those other guys. He doesn't have the plate discipline yet, but he has superstar potential and is still very young. TB could still field an OF if Gomes, Crawford, Young (LF-to-RF). Or they could keep Crawford in LF, with Hollins (who they inexplicably love) and Gathright in CF. Gomes could DH. I could see Baldelli being more available than Gomes, Crawford, and certainly Delmon. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. More asking your opinion. But what is the big deal about Baldelli? He had one really good season at Bakersfield in A-ball. Other than that, he hasn't put together any great numbers. His .326 OBP at the major league level isn't great. His strikeout to walk ratio isn't great. He put up his numbers at a young age, so I can understand people's expectation for him to improve, but his minor league numbers aren't consistently good enough to support this expectation. So why is Baldelli considered such a catch?

So what is the argument for Neifi Perez being a terrible bench player and having no business on anyone's 25-man roster? A lot of fans are saying that but no one is making a clear argument as to why they feel that way. Just trying to understand.

I don't think those things are necessarily mutually exclusive. Hey, I didn't say they were "mutally exclusive", I'm just saying, Hendry may just turn his attention to players that have shown interests in the Cubs (Furcal/Burnett), over players not over-joyed about the prospects of playing for the Cubs (Giles). Is this just your opinion or do you have some evidence to suggest that Giles doesn't have any interest in coming to the Cubs?

Wow. What a thread. It reminds me of that last scene in Resevoir Dogs where everybody shoots each other over nothing because they've all got itchy trigger-fingers when there is a bag of diamonds 20 feet away. I'll be like Steve Buschemi and will reserve comment as well. You know, until something actually happens.

There's no way we end up with Furcal, Burnett, and Giles. Hopefully we can get two of the three. With Dempster on board, Wagner is superfluous. We have other needs without throwing 10 million a year at Wagner. I agree the chances are slim simply because of the other teams that are competing to sign the same players, but I don't think its completely out of the realm of possibility. In fact, from what I've been reading and hearing, signing those three players is exactly Hendry's plan. No one will be able to blame him if he fails to execute it, but, like you said, even if he gets two out of three, this off season will have been a success, especially if one of those guys is Giles.

The article implies that this doesn't mean the Padres don't want him, only that they don't want him to shop the offer. I thought this was a done deal? :P How many fans actually said good-bye to the Cubs chances of getting Brian Giles in this thread? And now the Padres don't even have an offer on the table because Giles is so dead set on testing the market. Next time, just chill peeps. 8)

But seriously, folks. The state of this thread is that we are discussing how to structure the agreed upon contract offer of 4 years/50 million. Some of the options that have been put forth are: 1. Evenly spacing out the money at 12.5 per year. 2. Front-loading the contract like 15, 14, 11, 10. This would make Giles's pay more likely to match his production as he ages. The Cubs have the money to spend on him now, but in the years to come they will need to resign players like Z, Prior, Ramirez and Lee, so the declining pay scale would benefit them there as well as making Giles easier to trade without having to eat money later. And Giles would probably like it because he gets more money sooner which is always a good thing. 3. Structure it so it goes 12, 12, 12, 12 with a 2 million dollar buyout on a mutual option 5th year in the 8-9 million range. 4. The same thing as 3, but front-load it like 2. (15, 13, 11, 9 with a 2 million buyout on the mutual 5th year option) Roast has yet to start a poll on the structuring of Giles's deal, so we have yet to vote on any of these options, and that is where we stand.

It unraveled. :lol: Get it? Thread. Unrav...eled. :oops: Never mind.

Even though you're in Skokie (I grew up in Evanston), I am going to agree with you on this one :wink: . The more I've looked, the more I've seen that Furcal's defense and base-stealing makes his signing better than I had originally thought. I still think the Cubs are missing out on a golden opportunity to have Cedeno man the SS position cheaply for the next several seasons and do it almost as effectively as Furcal (minus the stolen bases). But that factor alone does not make a Furcal signing a bad thing that we would have to be resigned to happening. If the Sullivan article is accurate and Cedeno takes over at 2B after a Walker trade. The Cubs infield defense would be comparable to their infield offense, and that's saying something. Their team speed would be improved as well. If Corey is able to turn things around to the point where he is just decent with the bat, then the Cubs defense up the middle and their team speed gets even better. Nomar or Furcal. So long it is one of those two, I'm happy. And, at this point, I'd rather not trade Patterson. Unless some team is willing to give up something good for him, but I don't see that happening.

Baker, yes. Hendry, no. Hendry acquired Neifi to be exactly that, a bench player. Twice.

That is true, but I also think, Hendry may allow---since he pick up the option---Walker to have a say where he wants to go. I didn't say Walker would have a final word, just a say as to where he would be interested in going. And I am assuming, that Walker will either want to play for Texas (since he ALMOST sign with them last yr) or simply a contender. I don't think it was a face-to-face, badger. I only recall there being a quote from Walker in the paper saying that he hoped or was confident that Hendry wouldn't pick up his option just to trade him away.

Several fans on this site, not saying one of them was you, have criticized Hendry heavily for not having better back-up plans at SS and in the rotation where known injury-risks exist for the Cubs. Hill is still unproven and can't be counted on to perform when called upon like Rusch can. So Hill doesn't seem like a sound option as an insurance policy while Rusch's numbers over that last two seasons show he has the ability to get the job done when called upon. And the results of this season seems to have shown the need for reliable insurance policies. Plus, estimates show the Cubs have around 50 million dollars to spend this off season. So, spending 2.75 million on a player who can provide insurance to the starting rotation and effective relief is money well spent considering the amount of money the team has to shell out. Will this team make the playoffs with a rotation of Z, Prior, Maddux, Rusch, Williams? Thats an average rotation. Unless we get Giles, resign Nomar, keep Walker, and get Bradley, we need at least an above average rotation. If you are going to get an insurance option, why not get actually a decent starter and use Williams as insurance. If we get a #3 and Wood gets hurt and Williams has to step in, we still have a chance. Dusty needs defined roles because he has no clue what the right moves are. Who said Hendry was done acquiring starting pitching? The FA signing period hasn't even begun. He may not acquire anyone else for the rotation considering that the latest report on Wood is that he is on schedule. (I'll believe it when I see it). But, still, it is a little early to make that assumption, isn't it? I described Rusch as an insurance policy against injury not as a member of the rotation. You would like Williams to be the insurance policy. So would I. Who wouldn't? But who are you going to sign to be the 5th starter? The Cubs have to, have to, get someone the caliber of Brian Giles. Whether that is Giles himself or someone else acquired in a trade, it is going to cost money. Then it seems they will sign a SS. That will cost money as well. Then there is CF. Who knows what Hendry will do there, but the question remains, after all that is done will there be enough money to get one of the top FA starters for the rotation? If you want to bump Williams from the rotation then that FA will have to be better than him. Now it doesn't have to be a FA, he could come in a trade (Zito), but it is going to have to somebody good and likely expensive. Who do you have in mind?

Not trying to be mean, or pick a fight, or insinuate anything, but the word "euphmamistically" makes me laugh. That is all. It could have something to do with the fact that I spelled it wrong. :wink: