CubsWin

No, middle relievers for pricey 3 year deals are bad ideas. Especially ones like Eyre who don't have any sustained success. As an aside, does anyone know what happened to Howry's K's this year? Look, I agree that 3-years and 3.75 mill is a lot more than any of us wanted to spend. But you certainly don't think that going to battle with a pen of Dempster, Ohman, Wuertz and the question mark of Williamson would be enough, do you? Assuming you don't and you agree with the need to improve the bullpen, who would you have gotten instead of Eyre who would have been just as good but much cheaper?

No, middle relievers for pricey 3 year deals are bad ideas. Especially ones like Eyre who don't have any sustained success. As an aside, does anyone know what happened to Howry's K's this year? Three years of sustained success isn't enough? Can't anyone look beyond the one stat of ERA in '04 to gain a more complete picture of Eyre?

Yeah, our farm system is slim for sure. Not that i'm complaining but the Cards like to deal what little prospects they do have for established big league talent. Why are you here and how are you contributing to this discussion about whether the Cubs could possibly acquire Bobby Abreu without giving up Felix Pie? If you want to toot the Cardinals horn, please, go someplace else. I thought he was just trying to get a fair assessment of Felix Pie? Go easy man. Maybe earlier in this thread, but not in the post I quoted. It looked to me like a straightforward response to Vance's comment about the Cardinals system - it makes sense that a Cards fan would have a useful contribution on that comment. Hey, you know me, Ublink, I'm never one to shy away from admitting that I'm wrong. Your sig is testament to my position that we so often write stuff that we know very little about. So if that is the case, I apologize. Where I came in to the discussion, his comment appeared to have nothing to do with Felix Pie. And thus, my response. Getting back to the topic of the thread...

Certainly not my intention. Anything I misquoted you on I take back. (Now if only others would do the same around here.) Saying Eyre is well below his career norm in HRs allowed last season may be an accurate statement, but how relevant is it? Not very. Again, if you have the stats to show that he isn't capable of consistently holding hitters in the low .200s, what are they? I agree with you that Hendry is spending a lot on players that aren't great, but I think you are off in comparing Eyre to Ohman. Why, was Eyre signed as Ohman's replacement? No. Is there only a need for 2 or 3 good arms in a pen? Eyre was signed as an improvement over Novoa. Would Dempster, Ohman, Wuertz and Williamson be enough? Williamson is still a bit of a question mark. If Hendry went to battle with that pen, he would get strung up on this board. He is adding quality depth to the bullpen. And this is apparently what it costs. It is completely valid to say he shouldn't spend the money on Eyre, but no one has suggested a way for him to get someone just as good if not better for less.

Clearly he has a plan. He has created several different contigencies to date. And the setting up of contingencies denotes a plan. If Furcal, then Cedeno to 2B and trade Walker with Perez backing up both. If no Furcal, then Cedeno to SS and Walker remains at 2B with Perez backing up both. If no Furcal, then perhaps sign a starter like Millwood or Burnett. If Furcal, then perhaps trade for a starter like Hoops mentioned. Try to trade for Abreu, if not, try to sign Giles, if not, try to trade for Mench. Try to trade for a CFer, if not, consider Lofton. He already has strengthened the bullpen a bit by extending Dempster, picking up Williamson's option and signing Eyre. Improve your team's defense, ability to score runs, speed, rotation depth, reliability of health and bullpen. Sounds like a plan to me.

Scott Eyre, 3-year trend, ERA: 3.32, 4.10, 2.63; WHIP: 1.51, 1.33, 1.08; BAA: .268, .219, .200 And the splits are even better, since Dusty will likely use Eyre more against LH batters: 2003--WHIP 1.14, BAA .219; 2004--WHIP 0.95, BAA .200; 2005--WHIP 1.04, BAA .182. Yup, looks terribly inconsistent and unpredictable to me. He apparently started taking the meds in 2002. You forgot his 4.46 ERA from that year. Ooohhh. I'm all aquiver with excitement. Treating ADHD takes time. It is more than just popping a pill and magically you are all better. There are lifestyle adjustments. Learning to manage this disease over time is a large part of the treatment (for those who aren't paying attention). And your explanation for this stud of a pitcher putting up a 4.1 ERA in 2004 is.... Okay, Mr. Sarcasm, I never called him a stud. If you have such good stats supporting your position there is no need to put words in anyone's mouth, is there? My explanation is he gave up an inordinant amount of HRs that season (8 to a normal 3 or 4). Maybe there were men on base when he gave them up. Whatever the case, his ERA didn't match the batting averages and OPS he allowed in '04. Those seemed to improve a bit over the previous season, IIRC. So I took it as another year in a trend of improvement since receiving his diagnosis and treatment. ERA is just one stat. One stat never shows a complete picture, you know that. Also, you stated earlier that Eyre allowed a ridiculously low number of HRs last season when you were trying to prove that he was just lucky. He gave up 4 in '02 and '03 and gave up 3 in '05. That number isn't low, it appears to be normal, just one below his normal rate if you consider that '04 is the aberration which it appears to be. Also, while I completely agree that Hendry appears to be spending quite a bit on relievers that aren't studs, you never addressed my point that no one knows what the Cubs payroll will be this coming season. With the bleacher expansion and the greater number of very popular tickets to be sold this year, can anyone say with any certainty just how much Hendry has been approved to spend on his players? The size of these contracts only matters if Hendry fails to spend on other positions because he tapped himself out on the bench and bullpen.

Or just a lot of bad arguing. :wink:

Scott Eyre, 3-year trend, ERA: 3.32, 4.10, 2.63; WHIP: 1.51, 1.33, 1.08; BAA: .268, .219, .200 And the splits are even better, since Dusty will likely use Eyre more against LH batters: 2003--WHIP 1.14, BAA .219; 2004--WHIP 0.95, BAA .200; 2005--WHIP 1.04, BAA .182. Yup, looks terribly inconsistent and unpredictable to me. He apparently started taking the meds in 2002. You forgot his 4.46 ERA from that year. Ooohhh. I'm all aquiver with excitement. Treating ADHD takes time. It is more than just popping a pill and magically you are all better. There are lifestyle adjustments. Learning to manage this disease over time is a large part of the treatment (for those who aren't paying attention).

Yeah, our farm system is slim for sure. Not that i'm complaining but the Cards like to deal what little prospects they do have for established big league talent. Why are you here and how are you contributing to this discussion about whether the Cubs could possibly acquire Bobby Abreu without giving up Felix Pie? If you want to toot the Cardinals horn, please, go someplace else. I thought he was just trying to get a fair assessment of Felix Pie? Go easy man. Maybe earlier in this thread, but not in the post I quoted.

Yeah, our farm system is slim for sure. Not that i'm complaining but the Cards like to deal what little prospects they do have for established big league talent. Why are you here and how are you contributing to this discussion about whether the Cubs could possibly acquire Bobby Abreu without giving up Felix Pie? If you want to toot the Cardinals horn, please, go someplace else. I didn't think I was "tooting" the cards horn when I said their farm system is slim. I thought discussing Pit chances to be a different maker might shed some light on the issue. Nor did I. But then you started "tooting" about how Jocketty turns those few prospects into people like Mulder and Rolen. And that has nothing to do with the topic in this thread.

You are being entirely too negative about the quality of Eyre and Howry. These guys aren't scrubs. As for the money, big deal, at least it's being spent on something here that can help the team, unlike the Neifi and Rusch signings. An improved Cub bullpen is worth an extra 8 to 10 games over the course of a season. That's puts us back to the upper 80 win total category and a playoff contender again. Add a leadoff man and some respectable outfielders and this team is ready to go. Both of these guys are average players who happen to be coming off extremely lucky seasons. Not only were both lucky on a balls in play perspective, but both were well under their typical HR/IP last year. We're committing 7M/year and getting pitchers no better than Wuertz and Ohman. Who knows, maybe they're durable enough to hold up to Dusty's usage patterns. That would be a plus. Whoa whoa. You're saying that Howry and Eyre are equal to Wuertz and Ohman? Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Ohamn career era - 4.17 Eyre career era - 4.52 Wuertz career era - 3.96 Howry career era - 3.58 Tim, I expected better out of you than career ERA. You are a wiz with the stats. What matters most is what have they done in the last two years or so. Pitchers figure things out during the course of their career's. It sure looks like Eyre has. Eyre suffered from an undiagnosed disease earlier in his career which has since been diagnosed and treated. You can claim that his disease had nothing to do with his earlier struggles, but concentration is a key to success for any athelete. Plus, is it just coincidence that ever since receiving treatment for his ADHD, he has steadily improved? Is Hendry spending a lot for him/them? Perhaps. But it will only matter if he doesn't have enough money left over to improve the offense the way it needs to be improved. Do you know what his payroll is this season? Do any of us?

Yeah, our farm system is slim for sure. Not that i'm complaining but the Cards like to deal what little prospects they do have for established big league talent. Why are you here and how are you contributing to this discussion about whether the Cubs could possibly acquire Bobby Abreu without giving up Felix Pie? If you want to toot the Cardinals horn, please, go someplace else.

True, but thats not saying much.

I'm not surprised by Crasnick's note at all. This is what I thought Hendry's plan was all along. If he doesn't sign Furcal, he will go with Cedeno at SS and Walker will play 2B with Perez backing up both positions. This was talked about in one of the articles written about the Perez signing. I didn't think it was a secret.

I guess you didn't read that quoteless story very carefully and took the assumptions you made as verifiable fact. Was there a quote in that story from Hendry saying, "I will never trade Pie or Hill for anyone, so any GM out there that wants them shouldn't bother asking"? No. Did the author of the aritcle say that Hendry wouldn't trade Pie or Hill period, that they are completely untouchable? No. All the author wrote was that Hendry had been turning trades away that were asking for Pie. Did you ever consider that maybe who was being offered wasn't good enough to warrant trading away Pie?

No, this isn't a thread about whether Moises Alou should toughen his hands a different way. Nor is it a thread about whether I should have a another slice of french silk. Ken Rosenthals latest article on sportingnews.com got me thinking. If Pat Gillick really is considering trading Abreu, he must be doing so because Abreu is owed 30 mill over the next two seasons. He isn't going to give him away, but, in essence, this is a salary dump. Clearly, it is the only reason to trade Abreu. He isn't a clubhouse problem. He isn't a drunk. He isn't so old as to have serious decline in his production. The only reason to trade him is to get salary relief. So given that any trade of Abreu is in essense a salary dump, here are the two questions for discussion in this thread: 1. Is it possible that Gillick will agree to a deal with the Cubs that doesn't include Felix Pie? Would a package of Jerome Williams, Corey Patterson, Rich Hill and/or others get it done? Clearly, the best of both worlds would be having Pie and Abreu on the same team in '07 assuming Pie is ready. 2. Is it in the best interest of the Cubs to trade away Felix Pie for a player who will be 32 before next season starts? Is it worth not having Pie, who could or could not be special, for the years that he is 22-28 years old and relatively inexpensive, in order to have a minimum of 2 guaranteed years of Bobby Abreu at the price of 30 million dollars? Discuss...

Hello Kevin Mench. This quote and the linked article don't mean much really. Neither quotes anyone from the Cubs saying anything about Brian Giles. The only thing the author wrote is that the Cubs aren't interested in getting into a bidding war. Who is? If Hendry comes out and says I'm anxious to get into a bidding war for anybody, he weakens the leverage with which he is negotiating. So I fail to see the significant portent here. Then read the last six pages. I already did. Six pages of conjecture, however well thought out means about the same as the article that inspired them. I stand by my original comment that the quote and linked article don't mean much really. I can't point to one hard fact, one quote from a Cubs official, nothing from the article or the "last six pages" that undeniably communicates the direction that Hendry is or is not going. Can you?

Hello Kevin Mench. This quote and the linked article don't mean much really. Neither quotes anyone from the Cubs saying anything about Brian Giles. The only thing the author wrote is that the Cubs aren't interested in getting into a bidding war. Who is? If Hendry comes out and says I'm anxious to get into a bidding war for anybody, he weakens the leverage with which he is negotiating. So I fail to see the significant portent here.

I know the league will be testing for amphetamines next season. Let's hope Ritalin isn't also on the list. :wink: His treatment is a lot more than just drugs, though. I read an interesting article about it. Its a little dry, but for those interested in understanding more... Link

He was also dealing with undiagnosed attention deficit disorder. He first started to get treatment for it when he was 30 years old and has steadily improved his ability to get batters out ever since. So looking at everything prior to that diagnosis and subsequent treatment with the proper perspective would help in understanding Eyre's true worth as a reliever.

The ERA in '04 wasn't great. Probably due in part to the 8 homeruns. But his periphal numbers weren't as bad as his ERA would suggest. He had a 1.30 WHIP in '04. That's not bad. Batters didn't hit all that well against him. He started getting righties out better in '04 if memory serves. He has steadily improved since being diagnosed with ADD 3 years ago, so the numbers he put up in '02 and earlier need to be seen within the context that he was suffering from an inability to concentrate. His periphal numbers have gotten consistently better and he has maintained and increased durability over the last 3 years. He is more than just a loogy. He is a veteran with numbers that show he performs well under pressure. He isn't 37 like Remy was when the Cubs signed him. I think all of the above refutes your original comment about Eyre. But I could be wrong.

And so has Eyre. Lol, when? those 16 great innings in 2001? I guess you mean 2003, when he struck out 35 in 60+ innings. No, this is what I mean... Sometimes, it pays to look a little deeper.

Those stats are good, but we have nobody in the bullpen to get that cruical out. Not to mention, it would be nice if the Cubs can have a full season of pitching from the twin ragdolls. First of all, Scott Eyre is a nice reliever. He's not worth the years and money we gave him though. Coupled with the other 2 signings, it's bad money management. Next, if you want to question Wood's ability to stay healthy, that's fair game. But Prior has been hurt 4 times as a Cub. 3 of them have been complete freak things. It's a bit unfair to label him a rag doll. Also, Giles's best asset is his batting eye. That generally stays with players as they age. And I haven't seen any offer longer than 3 years yet for him. That's the same number of years they just gave to Scott Eyre, who's about the same age, and who plays a position where guys drop off the face of the earth production wise at random. That's true only if the Cubs payroll is low enough that it prohibits Hendry from acquiring the kind of players the Cubs need to win. You are making a sound and educated guess, but you are forgetting to qualify your statement as only a guess. We don't know what the Cubs payroll will be next season and we don't know that the players Hendry will eventually acquire will have the team win or not. It may be bad money management. It may not be.

Why?

And so has Eyre.