Backtobanks

You aren't paying attention if you think Arrieta is our #2 starter.

In one sentence you're basically saying that Hendry left nothing in the system and the next you're saying that the "nothing (nickels)" left in the system magically turned into Rizzo, Edwards, Grimm, Ramierez, Hendricks, Villannueva, Wood, Castro, Baez, Russell, and Torreyes. I get the fact that most of you don't like Hendry, think he was a terrible GM, and consider Theo as God, but the facts are that a a good chunk of this team (and ml system) was acquired by trading players left from Hendry's regime. That doesn't mean I think he was a great GM or that Theo doesn't deserve credit, it just means those "nickels" apparently had some value in the eyes of other GMs. Let's make this extremely simple. If you want someone to blame for how terrible the Cubs were in 2012 or 2013, you'll want to blame Hendry for leaving an unacceptable amount of talent on the MLB roster and farm system. This does not mean there were literally no good baseball players in the Cubs organization, but rather that there were far too few at every level. You can also blame ownership for not maintaining/raising Hendry-era payrolls if that's your cup of tea. If you want someone to blame for the Cubs being bad in 2014, that's on Theo and Jed for only being very good instead of transcendent at their jobs. If you want to give credit for how good the Cubs are in 2015, there is 0.000% credit that belongs to Jim Hendry. Last place in 2014 and 17 games out of 1st, but Theo and Jed were only being "very good". I'm glad you're open-minded, fair, and honest. NL Central W L Pct. GB Home Road St. Louis Cardinals 90 72 0.556 — 51–30 39–42 Pittsburgh Pirates 88 74 0.543 2 51–30 37–44 Milwaukee Brewers 82 80 0.506 8 42–39 40–41 Cincinnati Reds 76 86 0.469 14 44–37 32–49 Chicago Cubs 73 89 0.451 17 41–40 32–49

In one sentence you're basically saying that Hendry left nothing in the system and the next you're saying that the "nothing (nickels)" left in the system magically turned into Rizzo, Edwards, Grimm, Ramierez, Hendricks, Villannueva, Wood, Castro, Baez, Russell, and Torreyes. I get the fact that most of you don't like Hendry, think he was a terrible GM, and consider Theo as God, but the facts are that a a good chunk of this team (and ml system) was acquired by trading players left from Hendry's regime. That doesn't mean I think he was a great GM or that Theo doesn't deserve credit, it just means those "nickels" apparently had some value in the eyes of other GMs.

Even I can agree that it was hyperbole for me to use the term zilch. But, the thought process behind that post was to stress just how little talent Hendry left behind on his way out, and certainly wasn't meant to be taken THAT literally. Just making a point that Epstein had much less to work with than Hendry. Which is why I post on this topic. When posters state that "the cupboard was bare" and they had "zilch in assets", I feel the need to point out that those statements are exaggerations. People respond that "all teams have assets", but the "assets" have netted a good chunk of this team. Theo deserves a lot of credit for having his plan and getting players through drafts, signings, and trades, but the trades couldn't have happened without the players he inherited. Theo is a technician, not a magician.

Yeah, I just added Castro to my post. My point in all of this is that that this team has been built/acquired over a period of time following a plan by Theo that involved draft choices and trades. Theo deserves credit for making the draft choices and trades, but Hendry deserves credit for leaving the assets necessary to make the trades and for drafting Baez and Castro.

I don't think Hendry had a completely different situation. There was absolutely zilch on the major league team when he inherited it, and they had one of the best farm systems in baseball. Epstein had to take it a step farther, because they had zilch on the major league roster and the farm system was weak, also. I gave Hendry credit for adding talent to the major league roster without giving up the best of the prospects in order to create the success he did in 2003-2004. However, the organizational philosophy on what will make the team succeed going forward took a horrific turn under Hendry and Baker's watch. Abusing pitchers and not understanding the value of a walk and valuing said walks in relation to line up construction was the beginning of the end of his future as a GM. Looking at the line ups Baker was throwing out there day to day was vomit inducing if you look back on them today. Neifi Perez batted 1st or 2nd more than 400 times in 2005. There is just no defending that. He traded Greg Maddux at the trade deadline for Cesar "[expletive]" Izturis. The list of bad decisions became comical at one point to the point we all thought he was purposely trying to sabotage his own career, which he basically did. I certainly don't see ever hiring him to be a GM again after that. My apologies for making anyone remember any of this. The zilch that Epstein inherited netted the Cubs (and their farm system) Rizzo, Grimm, Ramierez, Hendricks, Villaneuva, Russell, Castro, and Baez.

Whenever this kind of discussion comes up, some of you forget that the situation with Hendry was completely different. He believed in young players and deserves some credit for the farm system during his tenure, but the Tribune company gave him the money and pushed him into a "win now" mode. He never was given complete autonomy like Theo. Also, many of our young players now came from trading the veterans that Theo inherited from Hendry. The time came when there had to be a change and Theo stepped in to make the necessary changes. Three years later, everything is coming up roses. We'll never know whether it could have been done a different way or whether anyone else could have done it, so let's just enjoy it.

It's not a teen years thing or dumb [expletive], it's just fans being fickle. This player is great until we find a reason not to like him. Same with a manager, gm, or owner.

Well that's not necessarily true at all. I should have posted it in green.

From MLBTR: Padres closer Craig Kimbrel has been claimed on revocable waivers by an unknown club, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (Twitter link). However, a club official tells Rosenthal that the Padres have no intention of trading Kimbrel. We know it wasn't the Cubs because they just acquired Rodney.

B2B and SSR might have to find a new team I was a Cub fan long before Hendry, so that ain't happening.

Is that like Bette Davis Eyes?

Since there's quite a bit of money left on his contract, so I guess it all depends on what the Phillies will eat. Either way, I can't believe it would be anything significant.

The more time Castro is on the bench, the less we'll get for him in a trade. Add that to his salary and you'll be lucky to get a middle-level prospect or two. Him sitting for a third of a year or whatever role he has isnt going to affect what other teams see him as one way or the other. Either they'll show interest or they won't. The time for trading for prospects is done, if we deal him, I'd be shocked if its not for a major league return. Other teams have surpluses and/or guys that need a change of scenery too. Lots of teams may show interest in Castro, but the interest level will depend on the price. If you can get him for next to nothing, you'll have teams lined up. If you want a useful ML piece or a high ranking prospect, there will be a lot less teams.

The more time Castro is on the bench, the less we'll get for him in a trade. Add that to his salary and you'll be lucky to get a middle-level prospect or two.

Here's hoping the temporary benching will help him "right the ship". Castro on the bench for the rest of the season might help in the short term, but not in the long term.

Yea, he's hit curves an sliders pretty well. . . . the change up has been a killer. I should have been more specific when I said "off speed." He's freakishly quick. . . .he shouldn't have any problem letting the ball get deeper. That just screams that it's more of a lack of confidence / mental thing than a mechanical thing. What still amazes me is that he's hitting like a pitcher for a month, but with 3 ball counts pitchers still throw junk on the corners. They're still afraid to give him a fastball. With the problems he's been having, why wouldn't you throw him junk on the corners?

yeah but imagine how bad Lester would have been without Rossy? Yeah last year after leaving Ross in Boston, he only posted 2.35 ERA with 71 Ks and 16 BBs with 1.07 WHIP for an ERA+ of 159.

They don't have infinite money, but I think Theo can get anybody he wants. We've talked/joked about poor Tom Ricketts for quite awhile, but I think Theo has his plan and a bottom line figure as to how much a player is worth. When Theo was signed, he said he had complete autonomy over the baseball side of the operation and I still believe that. He got The FO people he wanted, got the best manager in baseball, got one of the best TOR FAs last year, and is rumored to be in on Price over the winter. He has said all along that when the time is right, the money will be spent. Apparently, he doesn't think the time is right just yet.

That doesn't suddenly mean that he gets a pass for being awful for those 3 years. You obviously don't view the W-L of those years through the same lense as you do now, but they have to be good enough to justify it going forward. Whether he gets a pass is tied into the future of this team. As of right now it's a huge incomplete. He signed a 5 year contract, so I assume he thought he could fully implement his plan within 5 years. I know his contract will be renewed, but he is in year 4.

For all of the avid supporters of Theo and his plan, I find it interesting that people still need to bring up Hendry's name 4 years later in a discussion of the FO.

Exactly. Does theo deserve praise? His goal, and the reason for sacrificing 3 seasons was to build a team of young cost controlled stars that makes the playoffs most years. Well he's built a team of young cost controlled players that is in the thick of the playoff hunt, and probably a year earlier than originally outlined. So if you measure the job the FO is done based on the results, he's on his way to looking pretty successful. Like I said earlier I think it's fair if you reserve judgment and praise for 3-4 more years to see how many times they make the playoffs/World Series. Because yes it is a big gamble to punt 3 years to execute the plan. If they only make the playoffs 1-2 times and most of the young players are a bust, then yes Theo failed imo. I agree with you, but I do have higher expectations. My expectations are at least a WS appearance, if not a WS win in the next few years. I know this gets us into the "playoffs are a crapshoot" conversation, but squeaking into the wild card once or twice wouldn't be worth 3 years of punting.

So if we don't lose Castro or Montero we have between $10 - $25 million to add a SP, CF, bench bat, and a bullpen arm. So much for Price or any other TOR pitcher. A Price level signing/contract may not be possible (personally I think it's ridiculous they couldn't add a Zimmerman or Price for contract reasons but that's not the point for now), but if they are more interested in the pursuit of a young controllable arm (Carrasco, Ross, Gray in a long shot, etc) it's possible we can take care of most of those thing and stay around $20 million. That was my point initially. Trading for someone like Carrasco gives you a young controllable arm to fit in your budget for the next 6 years and if it costs Baez, so be it.

So if we don't lose Castro or Montero we have between $10 - $25 million to add a SP, CF, bench bat, and a bullpen arm. So much for Price or any other TOR pitcher.

A point that I haven't seen posted yet is that getting into the playoffs this year might help all of our young players with the pressure they will face next year when there will be higher expectations. The value of a WC game or playoff series could be invaluable to Russell, Rizzo, Bryant, Arrieta, etc.