Backtobanks

I'm sure this is part of their plan to drive down the asking price of Lilly.

I don't believe that for a second. There's a good chance the Angels aren't going to make the playoffs this year and Lee exercised his rights not to uproot his family for 2 months and then probably uproot them again wherever he signs. Actually, I think it shows a lot of character to make the decision he made.

How about a 2-fer? Grabow and Howry for a resin bag.

I'm sure it's a matter of letting teams know he's available for next winter if he rebounds. Of course if anybody is crazy enough to make a decent offer now (a pack of chewing gum), Hendry would be more than willing to trade him.

With Ordonez and Guillen going to the DL, how about a trade sending Lilly, Theriot, and Fukudome/Nady to the Tigers? I would assume that should get us a decent return in prospects, provide some salary relief, and open a spot for Fontenot.

I didn't say he was worthless; you're completely making that up. I said I value someone who has a ceiling higher than being a reliever and has a good shot of getting near or hitting that ceiling than someone who is going to be anything more than a closer, and probably not even that for very long. Your sense of "equivalent value" is skewed because you keep declaring him to be "exceptional" and comparing him to guys who have had abnormal longevity as closers that Marmol almost certainly can only dream of having. The bottom line is that he's a gigantic injury risk and most closers aren't effective for more than a few years. Selling high would be very smart, and it wouldn't require getting back an "exceptional" prospect for it to be a very smart move. I guess we'll have to disagree on how good Marmol is right now. Right now, I would describe him as "exceptional" and I don't have a crystal ball to predict that his career or effectiveness is going to end very soon. If he's not worth a "can't-miss" and a mid-level prospect, then they shouldn't trade him.

I guess I shouldn't have used Rivera's name, but my point was in answer to the suggestion that someone who does nothing beyond pitching out of the bullpen (Nuts and Gum) is borderline worthless. There are many outstanding closers (Lee Smith, Trevor Hoffman, Bruce Sutter, John Franco, etc.) that were very valuable role players to their respective teams. As for trading Marmol, I don't believe we would get equivalent value for him especially since prospects are unproven. Should Hendry listen to offers for Marmol (or anybody else)? Sure, but only if he can get equivalent value.

Rivera is the exception that proves the rule. He was also a guy with a K/BB ratio of 4/1 and a career WHIP of 1.00. Marmol is an incredibly inconsistent pitcher who will never be able to maintain his current K rate. If his BB rate does not come down sharply he's going to spend his career with inconsistent results that won't come close to Rivera. Also, the mention of Mark Prior here is just dumb. I don't even know what you could be possibly trying to accomplish with that one. The reason I mentioned Prior is because many posters mention that Marmol is a serious risk and his arm is going to explode any minute. When Prior was pitching, many "experts" lauded his perfect mechanics and predicted he would never have arm problems.

Well, no. If a pitcher is young, affordable and outstanding they can easily net you at least one decent player who has a ceiling above being a reliever that's a gain right there that I'd be very happy with. I'm not expecting a huge haul; just one or two good prospects. So you would be happy with a prospect that might be a #4 or #5 starter over a sure-thing, lights-out, proven closer? Because he's a huge injury risk, he's not affordable for much longer and he's never going to do anything beyond pitching out of the bullpen. Mariano Rivera seems to have done pretty well for a guy who's never done anything beyond pitching out of the bullpen. As for the injury risk, thank God he's doesn't have the perfect mechanics like Mark Prior.

Right. I'm not saying the Cubs need to move him, but they should definitely be listening if people are offering. That's exactly what I've been saying, listen to all offers, but trading someone like Marmol would take an exceptional offer.

"who they should be trying to trade" seems to include a lot of overpaid and/or unproductive players that nobody else will really give up anything of value for. with the likely exception of lilly. I agree that the list of players they should be trying to trade does include overpaid and/or underproductive players, but what's the alternative for a team that has to retool? Trading away your young players for another team's young players is a crapshoot.

So Marmol either is or will be a superstar...but you declare he won't net the Cubs much in return. Hey, it's great that you can have it both ways. Stop lumping in a guy whose ceiling is being a closer with Soto, Cashner and Castro. Marmol's kicked ass, but it's extremely unlikely that he'll pan out to be some kind of freak that has a long effective career. I also like how you bemoan the Cubs having Soriano, like he's terrible for them this season. Just stick to your usual ridiculous video game trade suggestions. You need to get off the video games if you think Marmol is going to net you very much in return. Relief pitchers (even great closers) don't net you great returns. So what's the point in trading him if he's young, affordable, and outstanding? I don't "bemoan the Cubs having Soriano", but you must be the only person on this board who doesn't want him (and his contract) traded. The only reason I listed Soriano as a player to keep is because no team will take him, so there's no use in pretending that he won't be part of the 2011 Cubs.

Every GM will get criticized, but the history of the Cubs, the passion and loyalty of the fans, and the media in Chicago makes it rather unique.

Why not? Why is he a super star? There's no good reason why Marmol can't be traded. If he's not a superstar, he's on his way to becoming one. Using that logic, should we trade Castro, Cashner, or Soto? What's Marmol going to get you? Maybe a good AAA player and a decent AA player at most. Like I said earlier, listen to offers on anyone, but it would take an overwhelming offer to get Marmol (or Soto, Cashner, Castro, etc.)

My point is that Ricketts has to put a product on the field next year to sell tickets. Following some of the posts here, we should trade ARam, Marmol, Byrd, Theriot, Gorzelanny, Colvin, Lilly, Lee, Fukudome, etc. As I've posted before, the Cubs will go into 2011 with a team they think can compete with their eye on contending in 2012. Obviously Ricketts plans to cut the payroll (at least for 2011). I would think that you need to keep players like Byrd, ARam, Colvin, Gorzelanny, Castro, Soto, Cashner, Marshall, Marmol, Dempster, Soriano (unfortunately), and Wells to be the core so that you can fill in the rest of the spots with prospects and/or reasonably priced FAs. As for the Hendry part of the discussion, my point has always been that he will be criticized no matter what he does or doesn't do. If he "sells high" on Marmol, there will be dozens of pages criticizing him for not geting enough and paying too much for relief help in 2012 (if they're contending). Everybody knows who they should be trying to trade - Lilly, DLee, Silva, Soriano, Fukudome, Zambrano, Theriot, Nady, etc. to open spots and get salary relief. Listen to offers for anybody on the team, but unless you're going to get the second coming of Albert Pujols, you don't trade away a young, superstar closer who is still very affordable.

I got a great idea, let's sell high on Marmol now and then bitch when Hendry gets him back in 2012 when he's making $13 million per year and the Cubs need a closer.

And the "lame duck" manager is still using him in tight situations.

How about having Lou retire now and letting Trammel take over. If he does a decent job, his name could be thrown in the hat for next year.

As I often posted, the Cubs are going into 2011 thinking they can compete and not go into a rebuilding mode. To me that means keeping Byrd to replace DLee's production. Assuming ARam stays and rebounds along with Byrd, Soriano, Soto, Castro, and Colvin forms a decent offensive nucleus depending on who they get to replace Lee @ 1B. They also need a starter to replace Lilly/Zambrano, but hopefully some of the young guys can step into that role. They certainly won't be the preseason favorites to win the NL Central, but they should have a decent shot depending on offseason moves.

From Yahoo: Big League Stew Wed Jul 14 12:23pm PDT Reds' Votto dislikes Cubs, disses All-Star teammate Byrd By David Brown Apparently, Cincinnati Reds slugger Joey Votto(notes) never caught the All-Star spirit. Votto refused to congratulate Chicago Cubs outfielder Marlon Byrd(notes) on his performance — one that helped the National League claim home-field advantage in the World Series — because Votto's temporary teammate comes from a despised division rival. Byrd made a head's up play in right field that forced Boston's David Ortiz(notes) at second base, and also worked a key walk in a seventh-inning rally that led to the NL's first victory at the All-Star game since 1996. Such an effort certainly is worth a high five ... a handshake ... a wave ... a wink ... a nod ... a glance ... a happy thought. Not from Pal Joey. Via the planetary front-runner, ESPN: "I don't like the Cubs," Votto said. "And I'm not going to pat anybody with a Cubs uniform on the back. But because he made that really cool play, it turned out to be a really cool experience. I'm really glad we got the win today." What a leech — and a sorry excuse for an All-Star. Even if the harmless Cubs weren't 10 1/2 games behind the first-place Reds in the NL Central, you're supposed to check the intraleague rivalries at the door for the All-Star Game. Ask ... oh, anybody who's ever made a team for either side. Votto obviously is new here. And, how did he help the NL win? Oh, yeah, he didn't. Votto went 0 for 2. It's a good thing Votto had Reds teammates on either side (Brandon Phillips(notes), pictured, and Scott Rolen(notes) to the left) during introductions, or else he would have had to interact with the "enemy." The horror. He should have made the NL roster the first time around but needed to win a final Internet vote to be recognized. The "Vote Votto" process should have made Votto especially happy to be in Anaheim. Yet, he seems to be harboring lingering bitterness about ... something. Or maybe that's just how he is.

I'm surprised nobody has tried to blame Hendry for the poor facilities.

He did play first base his junior year at Clemson but he would provide below average offensive production at first. Kinda like the 1B production this year. Or Hoffpauir in 2011. Remember the payroll will probably be lower. Cantu might be an interesting option.

It might be interesting to keep Colvin and see if he can take over at 1B next year. I think I read that he played 1B at Clemson. It might not be bad to have a Nady (or clone)/ Colvin platoon at 1B next year.

He's already got a bum arm and shoulder and now you want him to pull an ankle? =D>

The bottom line is that if DLee, ARam, and Zambrano were producing anywhere near what was expected of them, the Cubs would be right at or near the top of the NL Central. Nobody expected all 3 of them to fall apart at the same time. For those of you would will claim that you predicted 1 or more of them would suck for half a season, Hendry made sure he had decent substitutes in Nady/Tracy, Tracy/Fontenot/Baker, and Gorzelanny/Silva. If I remember correctly, signing Nady and Tracy was considered a very positive move by most of us. As for the payroll issue, I think Hendry had a lot to do with convincing the Tribune company to raise the payroll.