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Well, that kills any interest I might have had in Leyland. Check out the Tigers offensive stats for this year. This has been a very lucky team and Leyland is getting a lot of undeserved credit, imo.

First - explain the bolded part please, b/c I don't see any of my comments that suggest anything of the sort. Second - you keep saying he's a racist based on this one statement. If that's all you've got, we're just going to have to agree to disagree b/c that's certainly not going to convince me of anything. Why don't you find evidence that he rests white players during day games or really hot days or something like that? At least if you have evidence to corroborate your conclusions, that would be something. His statement is pretty dumb, but it's not completely irrational to think that people with darker skin handle sun/heat better. People native to lands close to the equator tend to have darker skin than those native to places further from the equator. It's not completely out of the question that he's right. I'm pretty sure I don't think he's right, but it's not blatantly racist either.

What are you talking about? Who is getting fired? Someone above said that if Dusty was white, he would have been fired for those comments. There's a double standard we're talking about here. Dusty's Black, so he can't be racist. In fact, I do believe this was his exact response to the extremely brief questioning of his remarks. If a white manager said he prefered playign black players because they could take the heat better... he'd be out the door before the end of the press conference. I don't know who said a white guy would have been fired for saying what Dusty said, but I think they're wrong. They may have been told that they're stupid and probably would have apologized b/c it looks bad, but that's it. And where, exactly, did Dusty say he preferred to play black players? I think he said they can handle the heat better. I don't recall him stating a preference for them in those remarks. Let's not confuse the conclusions you're inferring from his remarks with what he's actually said. One last thing - where does it say that Dusty can't be a racist. Dusty might very well be a racist. I just haven't seen any concrete evidence of it. I've seen a relatively dumb statement about "handling the heat" and some conclusions drawn from that statement.

What are you talking about? Who is getting fired?

what exactly does the bold phrase mean?

But saying that the minority handles the heat better is implying they will play better (in the summer heat). I'm not saying Dusty is a racist. He's just ignorant. As was Campanis. If the racist shoe fits one it should fit both. whoa, ignorance = racism? Where does that come from? You say "I'm not saying Dusty is a racist" then you say "if the racist shoe fits one it should fit both." So are you saying Dusty's a racist? Dusty said he handles the heat better. Whatever you infer from that statement does not mean that was Dusty's intent. Dusty didn't say either player was better than the other, he made an observation that darker skinned folks handle heat better. So maybe a white guy gets burned or has to use sunscreen or sweats more, he didn't say "White guys can't handle heat. So on hot summer days I only play black guys." Again, if you're going to come to the table and declare Dusty a racist, you're going to need more than that.

Just point me to some evidence to back up your assertion that he's a racist.

Other than the comment about heat not having as much of an effect on black players, what else did he say? I just don't remember any other comments (though there may have been others). And let's not compare a death threat using a racial slur with a comment about some races not being as effected by heat as other races. His comment was associated with race, but he didn't indicate that he thought less of other races because they were effected more by hot weather. Not even the same ballpark, really. racism is racism. Certainly, death threats are way over any line... race doesn't really matter. But saying black players are better than white players because they can "take the heat" better, is as blatantly racist as you can get. And it's obvious he uses that mentality to make player decisions. so, to me, he has no right to claim hurt over racist remarks. Are they wrong? Absolutely! But he's just as bad, if not worse, as his racism directly impacts people's jobs and careers! threats and slurs are horrible, hurtful, and just wrong, but they're also just words... Ever received a death threat? How many do you suppose Dusty has received? They're just words, but they're words threatening to kill you. That's bad. You're telling me that negatively impacting someone's baseball career is more harmful then threatening to kill them? Just want to make sure I'm understanding you. How much he uses the "take the heat" thing to make decisions, I think is less clear than you do. As I posted above, I think Dusty has an affinity for guys he perceives to be fast. If he sees a black player and just believes (consciously or subconsciously) he's faster than a white player b/c one guy is black and the other guy is white, that's bad, but it's different than saying "I'm not ever playing any white guys." Race may consciously or subconsciously come into Dusty's mind when he's making decisions, but no one knows for sure how much of a role that plays.

What the hell does that mean? Anyone who uses race is a racist by definition, whether or not they're sending hate mail or celebrating one's accomplishments. What's the difference between "you suck, " or "that is actually pretty good"? I don't think that's what cubfan1955 was saying. I understood him to say that "true racists" hate certain groups and will hate them even when they're doing well. Whether they use racial slurs to speak negatively or positively about someone wasn't the distinction. The distinction was whether the subject of their hatred was good or bad at his job. Apparently "true racists" voice their racism at all times, whereas racists who aren't "true racists" only voice their racism when a player isn't doing well and possibly even cheer when the subject is performing well. That doesn't make any sense. Are we now measuring degrees of racism? Not sure if you're saying I don't make sense or not, but I'm just suggesting what the original poster meant. But, yes, there certainly are degrees of racism. I don't think that's a novel idea. All racism is bad, but there are people who unconsciously act a particular way when confronted with people of a particular race and then there's the KKK. Somewhere in the middle is your run of the mill person who uses racial slurs now and then when he thinks present company won't be offended or is drunk (or for other reasons has the filter off). They are all bad, but the degrees exist.

Other than the comment about heat not having as much of an effect on black players, what else did he say? I just don't remember any other comments (though there may have been others). And let's not compare a death threat using a racial slur with a comment about some races not being as effected by heat as other races. His comment was associated with race, but he didn't indicate that he thought less of other races because they were effected more by hot weather. Not even the same ballpark, really. He absolutely did indicate he thought less of other races. He's a racist who wants more fast black players. Matt Murton is running circles around the darker skinned Angel Pagan, but Pagan still takes away significant playing time from the guy. Todd Walker was as good a 2B as Jacque Jones is a RF and Juan Pierre was as CF, but Jones and Pierre's jobs were never threatened by lesser players while Walker was constantly forced to sit. I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest Baker has allowed race to affect his decisions. I'm not disputing the playing time issue (not sure if it has as much to do with race as it does Dusty's thoughts on speed - and he's not the only one who doesn't think Murton is that fast, for whatever reason). I was asking about racial comments, which is what halplm brought up. I don't recall much of the dark skin/hot weather issue, but I don't remember anything that indicated that he thought less of white players. Maybe he did, I just don't remember. Either way, still not the same ballpark as the death threat letters. Now if he's making all his decisions based on race rather than a weird infatuation with speed, that's a big issue. I'm just not convinced that's the case.

What the hell does that mean? Anyone who uses race is a racist by definition, whether or not they're sending hate mail or celebrating one's accomplishments. What's the difference between "you suck, " or "that is actually pretty good"? I don't think that's what cubfan1955 was saying. I understood him to say that "true racists" hate certain groups and will hate them even when they're doing well. Whether they use racial slurs to speak negatively or positively about someone wasn't the distinction. The distinction was whether the subject of their hatred was good or bad at his job. Apparently "true racists" voice their racism at all times, whereas racists who aren't "true racists" only voice their racism when a player isn't doing well and possibly even cheer when the subject is performing well.

So are you saying Dusty's a liar or saying that writing racial slurs in a letter (some of which include death threats) doesn't indicate prejudice based on skin color? I hate what Dusty has done to this team and I've yelled many things at the TV while watching him that I wouldn't want my mother to hear me yell, but none of them had anything to do with race. They all had to do with his inability to properly manage a baseball team. I have no problem with fans booing or yelling things that attack Dusty's skills as a manger. I have a big problem with people yelling or writing racials slurs while attacking his skills as a manger. I have just as big a problem with people defending this as anything but racism. Using a racial slur to attack someone who is bad at something (rather than solely for being of a particular race) doesn't make it not racism. No. I'm sure the racial slurs/hate mail exist. I'm sure they existed in San Franscisco. I'm sure they will exist wherever he manages next. The bottom line is that I don't like the fact that this article attacks Cubs fans as racist. I'd be willing to bet the racist letters are not even from Cub fans but some KKK moron that happen to turn on WGN and see an African American manager. Well, I think you're wrong. I think they're from Cubs fans. I think the Cubs, like every other team, has racist fans.

Other than the comment about heat not having as much of an effect on black players, what else did he say? I just don't remember any other comments (though there may have been others). And let's not compare a death threat using a racial slur with a comment about some races not being as effected by heat as other races. His comment was associated with race, but he didn't indicate that he thought less of other races because they were effected more by hot weather. Not even the same ballpark, really.

So are you saying Dusty's a liar or saying that writing racial slurs in a letter (some of which include death threats) doesn't indicate prejudice based on skin color? I hate what Dusty has done to this team and I've yelled many things at the TV while watching him that I wouldn't want my mother to hear me yell, but none of them had anything to do with race. They all had to do with his inability to properly manage a baseball team. I have no problem with fans booing or yelling things that attack Dusty's skills as a manger. I have a big problem with people yelling or writing racials slurs while attacking his skills as a manger. I have just as big a problem with people defending this as anything but racism. Using a racial slur to attack someone who is bad at something (rather than solely for being of a particular race) doesn't make it not racism.

Not to mention that the most popular Cubs(Zambano, Lee) are minorities. Interesting how no one sends racist hate mail to players who don't suck. I'm not psychologist, but it seems to me that these morons are going more along the lines of "hey you suck, AND you're black." Wouldn't a true racist hate anyone who was not in their preferred ethnic group, regardless of how good they were? Yes, the ones that sent death threats to Hank Aaron as he approached the Babe's homerun total were true racists. He was good and they still hated him. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, but I don't remember hearing of Banks, Williams, Jenkins, Dawson or Sosa getting any death threats. Well, Sammy might have after he fell out favor but you get the point. So it's ok to send these letters and use racial slurs if they only do it to players/coaches that suck and cheer players they think are good? I'm sorry, but in my book, if you send letters to people that include racial epithets, you're a racist. And just b/c all those guys were loved by many/most Cubs fans doesn't mean they didn't receive some racist remarks in the mail and on the field too. I have no idea if they did, but I sure wouldn't be surprised. I think his point is that people who wrote to Aaron were truly racist, thus "worthy" of a story in USA Today. In comparison, today's Dusty-writers are just morons reacting moronically to a bad baseball team. Granted, no one is excused ("true" racist or not, it's all despicable), but at least a story about Hank Aaron's struggle with racism could actually address the issue. Nightengale's article, like everyone around here has opined, is BS. Yeah, I get the point. I just don't agree that there is such a thing as "true" racists. Doesn't matter if you send these letters to guys only when they're struggling or even when they're good, it's still racism. And the article may be BS, but I don't think it's right to blame Dusty or any of the players receiving these letters (or say they're using this as an excuse). I'm not saying you're doing this, but others on the board have been. If Cubs players are receiving these types of letters, I think it's news and I want to know about it. It makes me embarrassed to be a Cubs fan and thus somewhat associated with these people, but I'm still glad it's being brought to the public.

As the Tigers are about to find out.

Not to mention that the most popular Cubs(Zambano, Lee) are minorities. Interesting how no one sends racist hate mail to players who don't suck. I'm not psychologist, but it seems to me that these morons are going more along the lines of "hey you suck, AND you're black." Wouldn't a true racist hate anyone who was not in their preferred ethnic group, regardless of how good they were? Yes, the ones that sent death threats to Hank Aaron as he approached the Babe's homerun total were true racists. He was good and they still hated him. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, but I don't remember hearing of Banks, Williams, Jenkins, Dawson or Sosa getting any death threats. Well, Sammy might have after he fell out favor but you get the point. So it's ok to send these letters and use racial slurs if they only do it to players/coaches that suck and cheer players they think are good? I'm sorry, but in my book, if you send letters to people that include racial epithets, you're a racist. And just b/c all those guys were loved by many/most Cubs fans doesn't mean they didn't receive some racist remarks in the mail and on the field too. I have no idea if they did, but I sure wouldn't be surprised.

oh, poor dusty baker. all these racists are trying to run him out of town, not because a 95 mil payroll team is 20 games under, but because they hate black people. newsflash...people want him fired because he sucks, not because he's black. quit trying to play the victim. I probably should read the whole thread before responding to this, but this is over the top. If someone wants to write a story about the racist letters that Dusty and some players are getting, how is that Dusty's fault? And you think people are writing letters (some of which include death threats) that include racial epithets not b/c Dusty's black, but b/c he sucks? If he was white but sucked would he still get racial slurs in the mail? Do you think when Dempster blows a save he gets death threats that include racial remarks? Think Rusch has received a lot of racial slurs this year? I'm guessing no (though he gets plenty of fat jokes). Does it matter why he receives these kinds of letters? If the team were playing .500 ball and someone thought they should be better, Dusty still might be receiving these kinds of letters. I can't believe you're telling Dusty to stop playing the victim when he's receiving racial hate mail.

Buster Olney and others have said that CLee will sign with the Rangers. I wouldn't put all our eggs in that basket this offseason (I also wouldn't bank on a .900 OPS - his numbers have dipped quite a bit: .830 in July, .835 in August). I'd go after Soriano for 2B, leave Murton in LF and try to find a different platoon partner for Jones. If JP does sign w/ us, I'd want Murton's .360 OBP in the 2 spot. If his SLG doesn't improve next year, it's not a big deal at that spot. Soriano isn't my favorite option, but he's a guy Hendry would go after and he'll probably sign anywhere that pays him a lot - esp if he can go back to 2B (given the fuss he made about playing LF in TX).

I think your percentage is a little high. Of the 40,000 people at any given game, I'm guessing more than 40 are booing at least in part b/c Dusty's black. Dusty deserves to be booed, b/c he sucks. He doesn't deserve racist letters or phone calls or any of that other crap.

I would imagine that this kind of stuff happens to other teams too, but this crap makes me embarrassed to be a Cubs fan. I hate people sometimes.

If Barrett is anywhere near this year's .940 OPS and .390 OBP, it's a complete waste to hit him 6th or 7th. Assuming he puts up an OBP of at least .350 or so, I'd hit him 2nd, behind Murton. I like the idea of Theriot or Cedeno playing 2nd with Soriano in RF against LHP (not sure how bad Soriano would be in RF). I'd prefer Cedeno full time at SS and Theriot at 2B against LHP, but that's not going to happen w/ Izturis around. And I'd prefer if JP wasn't back, esp not leading off, and esp not for what he's going to be asking (.280 AVG and 43 steals are going to rope some GM in). I saw enough 4-3 outs that I'd just as soon put Pie in CF and let him hit 7th/8th than suffer through JP at the top of the order for another season (or more, since he's not going to sign a 1-year deal).

Izturis has a .302 OBP for each of the last 3 years. Why would we want to bat him 2nd? He's not only not ideal, he's terrible for the 2nd spot. I'd probably put Barrett there, since he get on-base at a good clip. And you might as well put Soriano 5th to drive in runs. Doesn't matter if he gets on base since the guys behind him suck anyway. Bat Izturis 8th. And hope he's injured again next year and Cedeno can go back to SS. Well, technically, Izturis has had a .302 each of the last 2 years-2004 he had a .330 OBP. With that said, I agree with you-he should be the number 8 hitter next season. And if you have Izturis on the team, why would you want him to get injured so Cedeno can play? Even if Cedeno improves his OBP 20 points next season, he'll still only be at .295, which would still be worse than Izturis-so you're still hurting the offense by having Izturis hurt. Jones is terrible huh? So terrible that his OPS is still above Murton's this year? (Yes, I know-Murton is likely to improve, which I agree that he is). Just sign Jacque a platoon partner and hopes he puts up the same numbers against right handers next season-.307/.347/537. Those are approx the same numbers against one side of the plate that Carlos Lee has this year against both sides, and Lee will probably make at least 12 million dollars this year-if you can find a guy that drills left handers, you can save 5 million from that position and still in effect pick up a big bat in right field. I glanced at Izturis' last 3 lines, and didn't realize it was numbers for '05 with the Dodgers, '06 with the Dodgers, and '06 with the Cubs - so yes, last 2 years. But we agree he needs to hit 8th. And I still think Cedeno can improve. Maybe not, but he's 3 full years younger than Izturis, so I think it's more likely he improves. As for Jones - I think he sucks. He's been very good against RHP this year. But over the last few years, his OPS against RHP has been .814, .775, .834. Not bad, but not great either. He's 32 next year and I think it's more likely he sees an OPS near .800 against RHP in the next 2 years than the .880+ he's had this year.

Izturis has a .302 OBP for each of the last 3 years. Why would we want to bat him 2nd? He's not only not ideal, he's terrible for the 2nd spot. I'd probably put Barrett there, since he get on-base at a good clip. And you might as well put Soriano 5th to drive in runs. Doesn't matter if he gets on base since the guys behind him suck anyway. Bat Izturis 8th. And hope he's injured again next year and Cedeno can go back to SS.

I realize Dusty is probably making decisions based on batter/pitcher matchups. But to make a decision based on 8 ABs is completely friggin stupid.