Tracer Bullet

I sense a new word filter is upon us! I'm not sure referring to people as "flippy dippys" is really much better.

What's the helmet for? Just curious ... You know how some flippy dippys wear helmets so they won't hurt themselves? Yeah I think that man is a flippy dippy. yikes

He also gave him away for nothing. How does that make it a good trade if you gave up nothing to get him and turned around and gave him away for nothing? That's not really anywhere near good analysis. Acquiring a player for virtually nothing, getting 3 goods years out of that player, and then trading them for nothing when that player started performing poorly doesn't mean you traded nothing for nothing. You're ignoring the 3 good years we got out of Barrett.

I agree. If not better, just as good. But I think the same thing about Murton too. Depends on what players the Cubs give up to get him. Also, having a coach that he's familiar with may be what saves him from his personal demons. I'd rather keep Murton to play LF/RF (Crazy dream of Soriano moving to RF), have Fukudome play CF and trade high on Pie. If Pie can net us a difference maker (preferably at SS), I agree.

Me too - the Tigers are my 2nd favorite team (and if Hendry keeps screwing up, I might have to switch the top 2). And yes, the Tigers lineup looks great - if Ordonez is closer to last year's performance than the 3 years before that and Sheffield is healthy, not to mention Renteria and Polanco being close to last year's .390 OBP they each put up. They have a few guys who put up career numbers last year who might not match them or even come that close this year. Throw in their shaky rotation and this is a gamble. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a gamble you have to take, especially with Santana likely to be in Boston or NY. I'd love to see Hendry pull off a move like this. But there are a lot of questions on Tigers team.

To be a bit fair, Teahen played against tougher pitching in the AL, especially considering how utterly putrid the pitching was in the NL Central was this year. Also, it was kind of an outlier year for Comerica this year, but since it's inception it's always been one of the ten toughest parks for hitters. Comerica is Detroit. I don't like the comparison because Murton's numbers are probably a bit inflated due to situational hitting (platoon) rather than playing everyday. They are essentially the same type of hitter, with Teahen probably possessing more power. A - I don't think Murton's numbers are inflated because he played sporadically. I think it's rare to have a player who plays better when they start almost randomly (it certainly didn't seem like a strict platoon, and the demotion to AAA didn't help). B - take away all of his PH plate appearances and I think his numbers would actually go up. He had a couple HRs, but his game log shows a ton of 0/1s. If there's one thing we learned in '07, it's that Murton isn't a PH.

I wouldn't call it blind allegiance, and I do realize that both the Cubs and Theriot can an need to improve. The point I am trying to make is that if the Cubs go into 2008 with Ryan Theriot and Ronny Cedeno as options for starting SS - I think it is obvious that Theriot is the starter. I am not thinking that Theriot or Cedeno will be the Cubs starting SS for an extended time, and I have no problem with Cedeno beating him out for the starting position. I just don't see it happening. What do you realistically expect out of Theriot? I hoped he would do what he really has always done - get on base, score runs, steal bases, and be a situational hitter. Though his OB% was .326, the guy basically walked about as many times as he struck out. He isn't an easy out (most of the time). He hits behind runners, etc. You say he was one of the worst SS in baseball, and I disagree. There were a lot of good SS in the National League, and Theriot was middle of the pack (8th with 80) in runs scored. He was 4th in the NL in SB for SS. The Cubs could definately improve at SS, and Theriot may be more effective playing off the bench and spot starting - but he's the best option the Cubs have right now. If you are considering planning for the future with these two guys - consider age and go with Cedeno, and hope he doesn't kill you with his offensive/defensive play. this is my new favorite statistic of all time. 4th in the league in steals among shortstops. i take back all the bad things i ever said about ryan. You can't ignore the fact that he was 8th among NL SS's in runs. He hit 2nd and scored 80 runs. This means he should be the starter.

And Murton, for the 2nd straight year, was a stud in the 2nd half. Floyd was also good in the 2nd half, but about 75 OPS points worse than Murton.

His OBP was 19 points higher (though he AVG was 4 points higher) and his SLG was also 19 points higher. Thus, his OPS jumped from .921 to .959. That's a pretty good increase, certainly not what I would consider insignificant. If we don't acquire a better SS this offseason, giving the job to any in-house option other than Cedeno just doesn't make sense to me.

Well, isn't that what he was in 2007? No. He started but he wasn't worthy of starting. He was terrible. Being the starter doesn't mean you should be. Cedeno had no business starting for the Cubs in '06. He was terrible. He was really young and wasn't ready. But the Cubs had no one else and so he was out there almost every day. If every player was thrown into the majors at age 22, with their entire career determined solely on that season's performance, a lot of guys would be considered total failures. It never ceases to amaze me that a guy who was terrible in the majors is considered worthless whereas a guy who was bad in the minors at the same age and then bad in the majors when he was 27, is "starter caliber" to you (and others). Refusing to consider age when comparing performances at the major league level is ridiculous.

Has Bruce or anyone else ever asked Hendry if he realizes that the comments he makes in public make him look stupid?

OH MY GOD. NO. NO. NO. NO. Do you know who Johan Santana is?! This is the best pitcher out there, period. Not the best pitcher on the trade market. Not the best pitcher who is a free agent next year. He is the best pitcher in the major leagues. The Yankees trump your offer with Phil Hughes. Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin and garbage don't get you Miguel Tejada plus all of his salary. This is just insanity. WHY would the twins do your deal? Please, I just want one reason. If trades like this got done, the league would be full of either teams with 13 AAAA-ers or teams with 5 stud pitchers and 8 elite hitters. Please. First off, I didn't say it was likely. I said it was prefered. Secondly, when Team A trades a player because they can't afford him they usually come up short on talent. Very rarely do you get all you can when teams know you have to trade the player. Granted, we are talking about Johan Santana and the likelihood of the Twins getting taken for a ride or slim to none. I don't believe that what I offered was garbage. I'm certainly not saying that any player I listed is as highly touted, or has a higher ceiling then Hughes does. That's not to say that I don't think the players I mentioned have value. And I believe that the players have more value then most here believe. If the Yankees give up Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky. They're basically giving up a possible #1 SP, #4 or 5 SP, and an average CF. While the Cubs don't have a possible #1 to give up, they could give enough SP to fill the middle/back end of a rotation (see Pierre, Juan trade) and still include young, experienced ML talent in any of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot. Or could give up someone like Patterson, who I think will be a starter in MLB. Again, I'm not saying the Cubs could "with out a doubt" get Santana for one of these packages, I'm just saying they should explore it. There is no reason to explore this. There is no "young, experienced ML talent" in this group - (Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot) These are Yankee pipe-dreams. I thought Cubs fans were better than this. I don't think the Twins get this done with Hughes, Kennedy and Melky, let alone with guys that we don't want or need. Well, apparently that's what's being offered. So, it's that or Ellsbury and Lester from BoSox. If that's not good enough for you, or the Twins then they can keep him and lose him and get a couple picks at the end of next year. I don't think that's what the Twins want. I think they want the best value available. Hughes may be the best single player they can get, but when was the last time you saw a team drop their top 5-6 prospects to get a guy? Pipedream? The pipedream is expecting a team to give up every prospect in their system. Like I initially stated, the Twins will in no way get back equal value when trading a player like Johan Santana. It rarely happens that you get equal talent. Especially when teams know you're shopping that player. One final thing. All of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot have experience. They have been on the ML roster, have played in games. That my friend is experience and each and every one of them is an experienced MLB player. They have no value. Since you did not specify that you would offer an experienced MLB player with no value, I felt like your trade proposal was lacking. That's just wrong. I would be shocked if every GM was as stupid as Hendry and though that Cedeno's 1 year in the majors at age 22 clearly indicates that he can't play at this level, despite what he's done at AAA the 2 years surrounding that year. I also don't think every GM is stupid enough to ignore what Murton's done at this level (and in AAA), including his .900+ OPS in the 2nd half of each of the last 2 seasons. Theriot and Fontenot suck. I'm not saying those 4 guys have any chance of landing you Santana, but to say none of them has value is just wrong. Since Cedeno & Murton are still "young" and both have at least a year's worth of ML ABs, you must be objecting to the "talent" portion of the definition. I guess we'll just have to disagree if you think neither of them has any talent at all.

I'm well beyond amazement and into infuriated now.

It's in his ESPN stats. Here are the numbers: 2004: 3.97 2005: 3.69 2006 (with Mets): 3.96 2006 (with Col): 4.04 2007: 4.02 Those numbers are surprising to me. That's well above average in P/PA, and yet he has an average to below average walk rate. What are his "fouled off pitches per plate appearance" numbers? I haven't watched a ton of Matsui ABs in my life, but maybe he swings at damn near everything, but just fouls most of it off.

no kidding.

Why? Because Weis acted like a classless child preseason with his recruiting sour grapes and allegations and now Illinois fan is reveling in ND's utter crapness? That's just karma, son. I'm pretty sure you're kidding, but stealing Arrelious Benn from us has very little to do with it, they just talk waaaay too much. For instance, this ludicrous Illinois/Florida debate. I understand their point that Florida strictly on paper isn't that much better than Illinois but they would destroy the Illini in a game, and everyone seems to think Juice, who has now had one good passing game this season, would shred the UF defense. No offense, but Notre Dame fans have always been the most intolerable (usually without any cause to be) in the entire realm of college sports. None should be allowed to critique the fans of other teams. Ever. You haven't been around enough Michigan fans.

So nice of you to say that. The ad hominem attacks continue on this board without challenge. you might draw less fire if you used words like "personal" rather than "ad hominem." Yah, OMC! Stop assuming that we are intelligent and treating us accordingly!!! You jerk. Edit: Oh, and....Go Mizzou because I once had to drive through Kansas and it was the worst experience of my life. OMC asked the entire board if they know a picture of Jesse James when they see it (some probably did, some probably didn't - not the point). In a separate thread, he posted a bunch of information about Babe Ruth and asked (in a similarly condescending tone) if anyone knew who he was talking about. Then, if anyone knows anything about these people he mentions, he says they got their information from Wikipedia (with all associated implication intended). The tone of his messages suggests that people aren't smart enough to know these things (or, omg!, use Google to find historical information!). Add in his use of ad hominem (which, for some reason, he's done about a dozen times in the last week) rather than saying personal attacks also makes him come across...poorly (don't want to venture into ad hominem attacks). I generally like OMC, I just think he could diffuse some of these situations by changing his tone a bit, rather than egging people on (asking Dobson to keep it up, acting as if the mods aren't stopping others from being mean to him, etc) As for the topic - I don't really care, but I just can't bring myself to root for a team from Misery, so go KU, I guess.

So nice of you to say that. The ad hominem attacks continue on this board without challenge. you might draw less fire if you used words like "personal" rather than "ad hominem."

Wasn't there a Castillo thread like last week? Or was I dreaming about nsbb again? Oh - and if so, I still don't want Castillo, given that we already have DeRosa. And I certainly don't want DeRo in RF rather than Murton. Jim Hendry is really pissing me off.

That's just mean.

So we might be paying, in effect, $70m for Fukudome (56 for him and 14 for Matsui to lure Fukudome). Unless he comes over here and hits like Babe Ruth, that's a huge waste of money. I've I said that I hate Jim Hendry recently?

Exactly. +1 Actually though, I do enjoy some of the quips. Some of you are really, really good at being smart-asses. I mean that in a good way. I think the jokes are more in reference to the post that started "at least Barry is off the streets" rather than about nailing him for perjury.

Here is our winner. Jenkins is seen as an absolute last resort and as a platoon player. The Cubs' No. 1 target is Fukudome. He has yet to say he's coming to North America. That's a huge, huge decision in Japan. On Crawford, the (Devil) Rays don't need to trade him. He has a favorable contract, and they, like all teams, could use a left-handed hitter. They'd have to be blown away by an offer, and the Cubs aren't going to blow them away. This stuff about Hill and Marmol and another guy for Crawford is nonsense. My guess is that once Fukudome says he wants to come over here, the Cubs will go hard after him. That doesn't mean they'll get him, but they're prepared to make a good offer. I look for the payroll to be about $115 million, by the way. Thanks for the update Bruce. What kind of offer would you see the Cubs making to Fukudome, and who do you see as the most likely fall back option? Well, it won't be Soriano money, but it'll be a good offer. I'm not sure of numbers. On the fallback, let's not discount a trade, whether it's the unlikely Crawford scenario or another avenue. (The Rays also are a difficult team with which to deal. They have a hard time pulling the trigger.) It's not a great or attractive free agent market, so the Cubs are very active in pursuing trades. I'm told some big-name players will be on the trading block all around baseball. But again, it takes two teams to make a deal. Bruce, if you're still here, do you see the middle infield as being set now, or are the Cubs still possibly looking for an upgrade there? Is Theriot the confirmed starter? Are they going to make it an open competition between Theriot, Cedeno, and Infante? What are they trying to do with DeRosa with the Matsui talk? I've been away for about a week, so I'm getting caught up here. I've got to look into the Matsui thing more. Myself, I can't see it, but...who knows? I would think DeRosa would be the starter at second, and Theriot would start at short but get more backup than he got this past season. But I've got to research this Matsui talk a little more. Can you confirm that there's about a 0% chance that Murton is starting in RF. If we miss out on Fukudome, any chance that Hendry realizes that Murton isn't really a bad option at all?

I've been stating this repeatedly on here for 2 years. So why are they letting Murton rot away and simultaneously decreasing his trade value? When you have something that you don't value, you don't realize that some of your actions are decreasing its actual value.

I stated this in another thread and I'll reinforce it here. Cubs management wants LH bats, which makes Murton's job classification in Chicago no more than a 4th outfielder at best. Which is stupid...stupid stupid stupid.