Tracer Bullet

reading comprehension is really suffering in this country. first of all, i didn't say that i am convinced that cedeno is a bust, i just don't think he will be a good player. second, there is a difference of about 450 PAs between pie and cedeno, not 300. That's pretty funny. I'm not sure if the reading comprehension comment was meant to be self-inflicting, but is there a meaningful difference between saying a good prospect is a "bust" and a good prospect will not be a good player? The 300 ABs focuses on the #s from Cedeno's 23-year-old season, which you have harped on seemingly forever as the clear indicator that he's a bust. I'm not going to dig up all the quotes, as I'm sure everyone remembers the arguments (you floated out about 4-5 studs, like David Wright, who were monsters in the majors before age 23 in support of your argument). So, given that this season of roughly 500 ABs of sucktitute came when Ronny was 23 and now over 2 partial seasons, Pie has 200 ABs of almost exactly equal sucktitude, I'm concluding that the difference between your raging support of Pie and your decision that Cedeno is a bust...I mean...will not be a good player, is the fact that Ronny's suck was over 300 more ABs. I've ignored the other ABs of Ronny's b/c we both have during this long multi-thread argument we've had. Since you've always pointed to that one season of Ronny's as proof that he won't be good, without reference to anything else he's done (minors or majors), I've ignored the other stuff too, for this purpose. I'm really just trying to figure out what it is that makes you want to give Pie the starting job when he's been terrible and looked terrible (until a few games ago) but want Theriot to start over Ronny still, despite all the evidence that Ronny's got the much higher ceiling (than Theriot) and his plate approach has changed for the better.

wait - Bartman was down the LF line...

Kerry wanted Soto to have another shot at the cycle. Team player.

Yes. The beard is sexy.

Lou with the foresight to PR for Lee so that he wouldn't stub his toe rounding the bases.

yes, and less than half were strikes

Agreed. Murton is not a PH. And he's only had 10 ABs in the majors this year. Not a good spot to use him (which is why he should be in Iowa if he's not ever going to start - he's a terrible PH).

ugh

People suggest this because it is true. yeah you got me, i hate those lazy latin americans and i love me some gritty white guys It really doesn't sound like you apply the same standards to Cedeño as you do Pie. pie hasn't had a season as a full-time starter in the big leagues. So the 300 AB difference, at least to you, is significant enough to justify saying Cedeno is a bust and Pie should be given the full time starting gig?

Cedeno should be getting PT, but he shouldn't be the starter over Theriot right now. MPrior laid out the argument perfectly. You don't name a guy a starter, and then pull the rug out from him after he's played well for a couple weeks just because your backup has played a little better over the 4-5 days that he's been in there. Lou would lose the respect of his team then and there. Who would feel safe anymore? Before, you had clear expectations. If you were the starter, then simply produce. If you produced, you would stay in there. If you start taking starting roles out of guys hands who are producing, then every member of your team is going to be constantly looking over their shoulder. They have no way to assure their job security. IMO, that's going to do a lot more damage to your teams production then the advantages of having Cedeno in there. This is not an open competition for the job. The time for that is past. Theriot has the job (rightly or wrongly) and he gets the job until he proves he does not deserve it. I now believe that Cedeno will end up the year as the starter at SS. I believe he's the better player over the course of the season with his new approach. I also believe that the Cubs would do more harm than good if they reversed their decision to have Theriot start right now when he's so productive. In fact, the Cubs hurt Cedeno by naming him the starter right now. In that scenario, the pressure on Cedeno would be immense, and any slump he went into would be big trouble for him with the media calling for his head everyday. It's better for Ronny to come in after Theriot has slumped, have lower expectations placed on him, and slowly settle into the starter role that he'll hopefully inhabit for quite a while. That's a huge crock. You think Lee, Aram, Soriano, and Fukudome are looking over their shoulder? DeRosa spent all off season looking over his shoulder at Roberts' fat head and it doesn't seem to have hurt him now. Soto's not worried about Blanco. Pie's already looking over his shoulder. So that leaves...no one else. You play the guys that give you the best chance to win. If Lou thinks Cedeno gives him the best chance to win, he gets the job. If Theriot doesn't understand and becomes a cancer, send him to Iowa (not that I think he will). He's expendable. People aren't going to lose respect for Lou b/c he plays the guy he thinks is better. And the media isn't going to call for Cedeno's head if he slumps. He's not carrying this team, nor is the team expecting him too. He's going to hit 7th or 8th. Some who love the grit will call for his head, but they're idiots.

No offense, but the debate has gone off-topic. While you're right that it's clearly named, the last time I checked the thread wasn't named Cedeno vs. Theriot. Indeed, it is still named "Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?" If you want to debate Cedeno vs. Theriot, then make a thread called Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's tiresome reading the same pointless arguments in multiple threads and derailing otherwise good discussions into the same entrenched positions over and over again. The discussion here is about Cedeno starting/playing most games... and I think he should. I don't care whether he plays 2B or SS all that much. I'd prefer that he play SS, but I'm not going to whine if he starts at 2B instead. And, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, the issue is perhaps more about Cedeno vs. Fontenot than it is Cedeno vs. Theriot. But, no one wants to discuss that. They'd rather rehash old, tired arguments. Seriously? I understand if you're frustrated and tired of these arguments. But I have to question why you stop into a thread about whether Cedeno should start if you don't want to see people argue Cedeno v. Theriot. Soriano's going to be back in a week. At that point, DeRosa goes back to 2nd and Theriot and Cedeno are fighting over 1 spot. How is Cedeno v. Theriot off topic for this thread? No one wants to discuss Cedeno v. Fontenot b/c there's no discussion. Who wants to start Fontenot over Cedeno (other than Lou)? I read a lot of threads that I have absolutely no interest in as part of moderating the board. I actually have an interest in this thread, other than moderating it, because I happen to think that it is past time to make Cedeno a starter (Opening Day would have been better). I've also said this several times, as have others: there's no need to make this decision until Soriano is ready to come back. Let them both play. There's every reason to debate Fontenot and Cedeno in this thread, and little to for Theriot and Cedeno. Cedeno hasn't lost time to Theriot; he's lost it to Fontenot. Soriano is out so DeRosa went to LF with Fontenot starting at second. I learned a long time ago that problems have a way of solving themselves. This might be one of them. So, since playing Theriot and Cedeno aren't mutually exclusive, play them both and see how they hit and field day in and day out. Cedeno hasn't lost time to Theriot? Theriot has 70+ PAs as a SS this year. Cedeno has 30 some PAs, some at SS, some at 2B. Until 4 games ago, Cedeno rarely saw the field. Theriot was taking most of those ABs until Soriano got hurt. Fontenot has only taken a handful. But again, why is this an interesting discussion? Has anyone argued that Fontenot should be starting over Cedeno?

Maybe it's the same approach he's had all along but which he seemed to completely abandon in the majors, possibly due to pressing (or Dusty) or whatever (if that makes any sense)? :-k You would know better than I would, though. the argument that cedeno was not coached properly and slid into terrible habits is by far the best argument for discounting his 2006 season and starting him right now. the arguments that he was "rushed" or "too young" at age 23 are terrible. So the difference between Pie and Cedeno for you is that Cedeno struggled for 500 ABs and Pie struggled for 200 ABs b/c the numbers in Cedeno's '06 and Pie's ABs up to now are almost identical. Pie had 200 PAs at the big league level at age 22, and has 36 at age 23. Cedeno had 90 PAs at the big league level at age 22, and had 572 at age 23. if pie gets nearly 600 PAs and is an absolutely brutal hitter this year, then you'll have a valid comparison. No, I think there's a basis for comparison now. I'm not saying they're identical, but they're certainly comparable. Esp when on the one hand you argue that Pie should be handed the job now and on the other hand don't have any interest if giving Cedeno an extended look over the likes of Theriot. As you said yourself, Pie has the higher ceiling. I'd expect him to perform better at a younger age. But Pie #s at the majors to date are striking similar to Cedeno's 2006. And it's hard to argue Pie has looked worse (until the last 2-3 games) in his ABs than Cedeno did in '06.

Maybe it's the same approach he's had all along but which he seemed to completely abandon in the majors, possibly due to pressing (or Dusty) or whatever (if that makes any sense)? :-k You would know better than I would, though. the argument that cedeno was not coached properly and slid into terrible habits is by far the best argument for discounting his 2006 season and starting him right now. the arguments that he was "rushed" or "too young" at age 23 are terrible. So the difference between Pie and Cedeno for you is that Cedeno struggled for 500 ABs and Pie struggled for 200 ABs b/c the numbers in Cedeno's '06 and Pie's ABs up to now are almost identical.

No offense, but the debate has gone off-topic. While you're right that it's clearly named, the last time I checked the thread wasn't named Cedeno vs. Theriot. Indeed, it is still named "Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?" If you want to debate Cedeno vs. Theriot, then make a thread called Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's tiresome reading the same pointless arguments in multiple threads and derailing otherwise good discussions into the same entrenched positions over and over again. The discussion here is about Cedeno starting/playing most games... and I think he should. I don't care whether he plays 2B or SS all that much. I'd prefer that he play SS, but I'm not going to whine if he starts at 2B instead. And, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, the issue is perhaps more about Cedeno vs. Fontenot than it is Cedeno vs. Theriot. But, no one wants to discuss that. They'd rather rehash old, tired arguments. Seriously? I understand if you're frustrated and tired of these arguments. But I have to question why you stop into a thread about whether Cedeno should start if you don't want to see people argue Cedeno v. Theriot. Soriano's going to be back in a week. At that point, DeRosa goes back to 2nd and Theriot and Cedeno are fighting over 1 spot. How is Cedeno v. Theriot off topic for this thread? No one wants to discuss Cedeno v. Fontenot b/c there's no discussion. Who wants to start Fontenot over Cedeno (other than Lou)?

No offense, but the topic is clearly named. It's not like the several times this off season where a different topic included several tangential posts about this debate. Someone started a topic and suggested it might be time to make Cedeno the starter. Some people agree, some people disagree. These people want to debate the issue. Soriano's going to be back in a week, so I don't think the timing is bad. There hasn't been anything close to name-calling or other rules violations. If we want to debate the merits of Cedeno v. Theriot, isn't this the proper place?

i've said you can't, or more accurately shouldn't, bench a player who has been performing at a high level. there is at least one other person in this thread who agrees with me, so i guess i can throw out a blanket statement about your benching a .893 OPS hitter as being not logical. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

It seems like you may have something for Cedeno or really hate Theriot, but it does not make sense to say hey Theriot you won the starting position and you have done nothing to lose it, but we are going to replace you because your back up has had a few good at bats. It is obvious that you want Cedeno in there no matter what the reason is, but let things be for a bit. Keep Theriot as the starter and get Cedeno in there as much as possible. If one comes back to reality then there is a reason to make a switch. My statement was made based on many many posts by Truffle over the dozens of threads that this discussion has arisen in. And yes, I want Cedeno to start over Theriot. He should have been starting from the beginning of the year. He's the one who has a history of good production in AAA. He's the one that's significantly younger and just entering his prime. He's the one that could fit into the Cubs plans as a long term answer to what has been a gaping hole for years. He gives us the better chance to win this year than Theriot. So he should be starting. Theriot's history and age make it much less likely that he'll put up good or even average numbers for long, where Cedeno's history and age make it much more likely he'll that put up solid to good numbers this year (though not likely a .950 OPS). ETA - re the bolded part: yes, something about a young SS that put up a .900+ OPS twice in AAA makes me like him. Not sure why. i end up debating this over lots of threads and posts because people like you continually suggest that i have a weird affinity for theriot or a prejudice against cedeno. i've laid out my points before; cedeno was one of the five worst players in baseball over a full season at age 23, and also has a tendency to make stupid/careless plays on the basepaths and in the field. my opinion is that he won't improve enough over his horrid 2006 numbers to be a better player than theriot. hopefully i'm wrong. but please, stop suggesting that there aren't any logical reasons to support theriot over cedeno, and you won't have to worry about me posting so much in the "START CEDENO BENCH THERIOT" threads any more. No. I don't think there are logical reasons to support Theriot over Cedeno. All you've said in this thread is that you can't bench Theriot b/c he has a high OPS. That's not logical. His replacement, who has more talent, has a better OPS and everything suggests that the odds favor him being the better player for the next several years.

exactly

japan side

who is going to take a 35-year-old Soriano with 3 years at $16m left on his contract? A lot of teams if his numbers are similar to where they are now. Well not NOW, but the general now of his career. With an OPS of .840 (his career OPS), you think they'll be a lot of people looking to take him? If he has a couple years of .800-.820 OPS like he did in Texas, I don't think the phones will be ringing off the hook.

who is going to take a 35-year-old Soriano with 3 years at $16m left on his contract?

Nothing, which is pretty clearly stated in the original post. Didn't realize you had to approve topics.

I agree that Marshall is being mis-used. But I don't think Murton or Marshall has a place on this team. I'd like both of them starting in AAA. Murton's never going to see the field with Soriano up and he's not a very good PH. I'd prefer Marshall get regular starts in AAA than ride the bench too. Of course, Fontenot also doesn't deserve to be on the team. Can we send all 3 down and bring up 2 bench players that could PH and don't suck?

seems like an odd concern, given his history.

It seems like you may have something for Cedeno or really hate Theriot, but it does not make sense to say hey Theriot you won the starting position and you have done nothing to lose it, but we are going to replace you because your back up has had a few good at bats. It is obvious that you want Cedeno in there no matter what the reason is, but let things be for a bit. Keep Theriot as the starter and get Cedeno in there as much as possible. If one comes back to reality then there is a reason to make a switch. My statement was made based on many many posts by Truffle over the dozens of threads that this discussion has arisen in. And yes, I want Cedeno to start over Theriot. He should have been starting from the beginning of the year. He's the one who has a history of good production in AAA. He's the one that's significantly younger and just entering his prime. He's the one that could fit into the Cubs plans as a long term answer to what has been a gaping hole for years. He gives us the better chance to win this year than Theriot. So he should be starting. Theriot's history and age make it much less likely that he'll put up good or even average numbers for long, where Cedeno's history and age make it much more likely he'll that put up solid to good numbers this year (though not likely a .950 OPS). ETA - re the bolded part: yes, something about a young SS that put up a .900+ OPS twice in AAA makes me like him. Not sure why.