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We can quibble over the number of pitches that should be the upper limit. Some people think that 105 is a reasonable limit for young pitchers. Some think it should be 90-95. Some think that keeping the pitches under 110 is fine. Some think that older pitcher can handle up to 120. The point is that it's the pitches per appearance that matter. It's not the number of appearances. In a week in which starters averaged less than five innings, we had Dempster appear in two games and throw 29 pitches. Bob Howry appeared in two games and thew 18 pitches. Scott Williamson only threw 42 pitches. Give it another month or two? If our starters can make it deeper into games, the pen will get even less use than they are getting right now. What do you mean by a "power pitcher?" If you mean hard throwers, those are exactly the ones who should be monitored. To clarify, you have no problem with a starter throwing 110 pitches, but you think that relievers get worn out throwing 25 pitches an appearance every two or three days?

If you want to believe what you want to believe without basing it on any evidence, I can't change your mind. Look at the numbers TT posted. Our starters have averaged slightly LESS than 5 innings per game during the last 5 starts. During that same period of time, we have guys in our bullpen who have thrown less than 30 pitches. Our bullpen is not overworked. If anything, some guys are not getting enough work. There's no need to worry about them being "toast" by June. Again, the evidence shows that throwing too many pitches in an outing leads to pitching injuries. The evidence does not show that extra rest between outings prevents injuries. There's no way that Angel Guzman should be throwing 100+ pitches after pitching 18 innings in all of 2005.

Eh? Most our starters can't get beyond the 5th inning. The number of innings that a pitcher throws doesn't matter. It's the number of pitches that matter. Dusty has his starters throw too many pitches. You just stated why Dusty is worried about his bullpen being burnt out. Because his starters can't make it past 5 innings regardless of the pitch count. What is Dusty suppose to pull his starters after 4 innings because of pitch counts? Should Dusty pull his starters after 4 innings because of pitch counts? Absolutely. If Guzman hits 90 pitches, he should be pulled, whether it's the second inning or the seventh. Starter's pitch counts in the last 5 games: Guzman: 104 Marshall: 90 Maddux: 89 Zambrano: 103 Rusch: 81 Maddux and Marshall are about right. Z should be pulled at about 100 pitches. Guzman should have been pulled at 90. As for the bullpen during that time: Dempster: 29 Eyre: 57 Howry: 18 Ohman: 61 Novoa: 88 Williamson: 42 You could make the case that Novoa is overworked, but that's it. Do you think Howry has seen too much action? Dempster? Eyre? Decades of research have shown that it's much easier to throw 30 pitches three times over a five day period than it is to throw 90 pitches once in that period. Rest between appearances isn't nearly as important as limiting pitches during appearances.

Eh? Most our starters can't get beyond the 5th inning. The number of innings that a pitcher throws doesn't matter. It's the number of pitches that matter. Dusty has his starters throw too many pitches.

Oh noes! Our pen in spent. :twisted: Why is Dusty so concerned about overusing his bullpen but so unconcerned about riding his starters way too hard?

Supposedly this will finish the stadium off and give them 100% capacity. Will it just be the left field area or are there other areas for which more seats will be sold? I dunno, but I got four great seats for the Saturday and Sunday Cubs games in July at 9:00 this morning. All the seats are in the left field "Casino Queen Party Porch," whatever that means.

Why rip Dusty? 1. He's a regular league-leader in pitcher abuse points. Wood, Prior, and Zambrano were all in the top 12 in all of baseball in 2003 in pitcher abuse points. Are Prior and Wood rehabbing right now because Dusty leaves his starters in too long? It's impossible to prove a cause and effect relationship, but Dusty sure doesn't help his starters' chances of staying healthy. Leaving Guzman in for so long yesterday was egregious. 2. Bunting in the first inning. With an offense that struggles to score runs. Should be a fireable offense. 3. Refuses to recognize his players' limitations. Jones can't hit lefties, but Baker thinks he needs another chance to prove himself. Latroy couldn't close ballgames, but Dusty trotted him out there anyway. Corey wasn't a leadoff hitter. Dempster shouldn't have started last year. Lenny Harris? No manager would do very well with the current Cubs lineup. It wasn't Dusty's fault that we lost 8-0 yesterday, for example (except if you assign him some blame for Wood and Prior not being available, which is reasonable). Our general manager, ownership, and training staff do get credit for fielding a team that would struggle to score runs with DLee in the lineup.

I have seen this alot lately, do you honestly think our offensive problems are just because DLee's not playing? I agree, he is a difference maker, but his being absent isn't the only reason the Cubs suck at the plate. True, but taking out 46 HR's and 100 RBIs REALLY hurts this average line-up. Throw the farm at Florida. If this team with constructed expecting Lee to hit 46 homers again, then we've got a problem in the front office. I'd fully expect DLee's HR total to be in the upper-30's, but last season's totals would be hard for anyone to duplicate. Our team EQA is among the lowest in MLB. We're a worse offensive team than Kansas City. We're 50 points lower than Cleveland: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/eqa2006.php#tmtot

Yeah, a lot of Cubs fans were drinking Joe Morgan's koolaid back then. Our best hitter in 2004 wanted to come back in 2005, and would have given us a hometown discount, but Hendry wanted to get the bad seeds out of the clubhouse.

Jacque Jones has a reddish-colored bat. It's neat. Maybe he'll let everyone else use it.

Nobody got hurt? I guess. If Jacque Jones were to trip on his shoelaces, I would not cry.

CUBS LOSE! CUBS LOSE!

Nah. We've all been talking about how nice the grass looks at Wrigley right now.

He already walked once today. Barrett's the least of our concern when it comes to approach. I hate to say it, but Ronny's our biggest concern in that area. Last time I checked (a day or two ago), he was the 4th lowest out of all qualified batters in pitchers per plate appearance. Ronny takes fewer pitches than Vlad Guerrero. I just checked the stats at ESPN.com, for anyone who's interested. Ronny is dead last in pitches per plate appearance of all qualified batters in MLB. :( Jeff Francoeur mocks Ronny's plate discipline.

He already walked once today. Barrett's the least of our concern when it comes to approach. I hate to say it, but Ronny's our biggest concern in that area. Last time I checked (a day or two ago), he was the 4th lowest out of all qualified batters in pitchers per plate appearance. Ronny takes fewer pitches than Vlad Guerrero.

IT'S CALLED HITTING DUDE! NOT WALKING! alkals;djfasdf

Spelling is very important on thsi board. :P And I expect an under .500 season.

We should be under .500 (even including the games in which DLee played) based on runs scored and runs allowed. We've gotten lucky a few times. I don't have high expectations for this team. Hendry gave us a pretty good bullpen (Williamson, Howry, Eyre, and Dempster) in the offseason. The bullpen is about the only positive for the team. This team wouldn't score many runs if Lee were healthy.

I've never understood wearing the visiting team's colors to a game. It's fine to root for your team, but why make yourself a target? Cubs fans are more docile than Philly fans, but I've seen a beer or two thrown at fans wearing the wrong hat before. I've never understood the people who view visiting fans as targets. I've been to several stadiums wearing Cubs, Bears and Blackhawks colors. The most I've dealt with is a disparaging word or three. But it's usually the pathetic cowards in a group of cowards who choose to throw something at the smallest opposing fan they can find. I've been embarassed to be a Cubs fan at Wrigley before. The four guys sitting next to me at a game in 04 were Cardinals fans. They weren't obnoxious. They cheered for their team but didn't rub it in. As the game ends, a drunk Cubs fan throws a beer at them. I've seen stuff like that happen often. Mets fans, though, are the worst. One example: the Leicester start last year. There were a handful of Mets fans sitting a few rows in front of me, and they celebrated every Met hit like they were shelling Roger Clemens or Bob Gibson, standing up and blocking the view of people behind them while waving a big Mets flag. They got a lot of abuse by the end of the night, and they deserved it.

I'm frustrated, too, and I think as little of Dusty as anyone else. But changing the batting order won't help much. No matter how they're ordered, they're still the same players. Hendry (and to some extent, ownership) are to blame for what we're seeing now.

90 pitches should have been Guzman's limit. How much has he pitched in the last year?

Yeah, I agree. After a game like this, there's no way Hendry will get an extension. Oh wait.

I've never understood wearing the visiting team's colors to a game. It's fine to root for your team, but why make yourself a target? Cubs fans are more docile than Philly fans, but I've seen a beer or two thrown at fans wearing the wrong hat before.

Damn, I didn't even realize he was still out there. This is a horrible, horrible decision. The guy is coming off arm problems, and you are gonna throw him out there for a 6th inning when he's already above 90 pitches!?! It's not like he's even pitching that great. yeah, but don't expect dusty to think about that. Which is why he has no buisness being the manager of my team if I were Jim Hendry. Well what choice do he have? The bullpen is spend as it is and our next day off is in two weeks. Glendon Rusch? Roberto Novoa? Anyone other than leaving in ANGEL GUZMAN. A guy who has had a bad history of injuries in the past and who I would prefer to be a large part of our future. Well said. It's impossible to prove that Dusty is to blame for Prior and Wood's injury problems, but Wood was #2 in pitcher abuse points in 2003 and Prior was #5. They might have gotten hurt anyway, but leaving starters in for too long too many times sure doesn't help.

Damn, I didn't even realize he was still out there. This is a horrible, horrible decision. The guy is coming off arm problems, and you are gonna throw him out there for a 6th inning when he's already above 90 pitches!?! It's not like he's even pitching that great. Yep. The same Dusty who worries about using his pen too much has his starters throw way too many pitches on a regular basis. The research shows the number of pitches causes injuries while time in between appearances doesn't matter as much as baseball people believe it does.