nilodnayr

Oh man, you're leaving? We didn't even get to use VORP and EqA yet I used VORP in this thread (not pertaining to Greene/Theriot though).

LOVE THIS. If you guys were smart you would read it more carefully where I put "since it shows what kind of player they are." HR's and SB's are comparable depending on the player. For instance Greene is a power hitter thus he hit around 28 HR's and had around 4 stolen bases. Theriot is a speedy guy meaning he hit around 4 HR's and has about 28 SB's. See how they are comparable. I'm not saying I would take 28 SB's over 28 HR's, but im saying thats the type of player they are. Greene has a good amount of HR's for the type of hitter he his, and Theriot has a good amount of SB's for the type of player he is. Why is it ok to say that HR's and SLG matter but OBP and SB's dont??? Who the ____ decides that that is more important in baseball? I completely disagree. I think OBP is just as important as stuff like SLG. I think batting average is just as important as stuff like HR's. It's ridiculous to say it is not! The overwhelming majority of people on this board will agree that OBP is a very important statistic. Batting average is not. While I understand the point you are trying to make when comparing SB and HR, they just aren't comparable. A home run equals a run, whereas a stolen base does not, thus making home runs much more valuable than steals. SLG > OBP (slightly) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BA>SB Flip OBP and SLG. The fact is there is basically little to no marginal difference in Greene vs Theriot's OBP. The difference in their slugging with Greene in Wrigley would be huge. In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say that Green's IsoP as a cub would be 2.5 times Theriot's. I could have sworn that I've read that SLG is marginally (theres that word again) more important than OBP in statistical analysis. I thought that was a critique against using OPS as a comparative tool. Nope, you got it flipped. And its more than marginal. 1.8*OBP+ SLG is the multiplier that I've most commonly seen.

LOVE THIS. If you guys were smart you would read it more carefully where I put "since it shows what kind of player they are." HR's and SB's are comparable depending on the player. For instance Greene is a power hitter thus he hit around 28 HR's and had around 4 stolen bases. Theriot is a speedy guy meaning he hit around 4 HR's and has about 28 SB's. See how they are comparable. I'm not saying I would take 28 SB's over 28 HR's, but im saying thats the type of player they are. Greene has a good amount of HR's for the type of hitter he his, and Theriot has a good amount of SB's for the type of player he is. Why is it ok to say that HR's and SLG matter but OBP and SB's dont??? Who the ____ decides that that is more important in baseball? I completely disagree. I think OBP is just as important as stuff like SLG. I think batting average is just as important as stuff like HR's. It's ridiculous to say it is not! The overwhelming majority of people on this board will agree that OBP is a very important statistic. Batting average is not. While I understand the point you are trying to make when comparing SB and HR, they just aren't comparable. A home run equals a run, whereas a stolen base does not, thus making home runs much more valuable than steals. SLG > OBP (slightly) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BA>SB Flip OBP and SLG. The fact is there is basically little to no marginal difference in Greene vs Theriot's OBP. The difference in their slugging with Greene in Wrigley would be huge. In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say that Green's IsoP as a cub would be 2.5 times Theriot's. I could have sworn that I've read that SLG is marginally (theres that word again) more important than OBP in statistical analysis. I thought that was a critique against using OPS as a comparative tool. Nope, you got it flipped. And its more than marginal.

LOVE THIS. If you guys were smart you would read it more carefully where I put "since it shows what kind of player they are." HR's and SB's are comparable depending on the player. For instance Greene is a power hitter thus he hit around 28 HR's and had around 4 stolen bases. Theriot is a speedy guy meaning he hit around 4 HR's and has about 28 SB's. See how they are comparable. I'm not saying I would take 28 SB's over 28 HR's, but im saying thats the type of player they are. Greene has a good amount of HR's for the type of hitter he his, and Theriot has a good amount of SB's for the type of player he is. Why is it ok to say that HR's and SLG matter but OBP and SB's dont??? Who the ____ decides that that is more important in baseball? I completely disagree. I think OBP is just as important as stuff like SLG. I think batting average is just as important as stuff like HR's. It's ridiculous to say it is not! The overwhelming majority of people on this board will agree that OBP is a very important statistic. Batting average is not. While I understand the point you are trying to make when comparing SB and HR, they just aren't comparable. A home run equals a run, whereas a stolen base does not, thus making home runs much more valuable than steals. SLG > OBP (slightly) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BA>SB Flip OBP and SLG. The fact is there is basically little to no marginal difference in Greene vs Theriot's OBP. The difference in their slugging with Greene in Wrigley would be huge. In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say that Green's IsoP as a cub would be 2.5 times Theriot's.

The idea isn't to keep those four. The idea is to use those four in a trade that would be more of an upgrade than from Lofton "up" to Figgins... Theriot up to any real shortstop is a much larger improvement than Figgins would be over Lofton, if he is one at all. Let me guess, you think Khalil Greene over Theriot is more of an upgrade than Figgins over Lofton?? Cuz there arent any other shortstops out there that are available. And Greene is awful! Yes, Greene over Theriot is a much bigger upgrade than Figgins over Lofton. Much bigger. I'd pull some stats to prove it, but you probably saw all four players on TV a few times. How could I argue against that? I'll save you the time!!!! Greene vs. Theriot BA- .254 vs. .266 (hmmmm) OBP- .291 vs. .326 (hmmmm) BB- 32 vs. 49 K- 128 vs. 50 (ouch) SB- 4 vs. 28 (comparable to the HR's since it shows what kind of player they are) HR- 27 vs. 3 (this is the only thing Greene is that much better than Theriot)... power #s In my opinion I would rather have Greene than Theriot. But based on numbers Greene is god awful. An OBP less than .300!!!!! Are you kidding me? Yes Greene plays good defense and hits for more power. But Theriot isnt that type of player. There is no way Greene is more of an upgrade over Theriot than Figgins is over Lofton. i'm not sure what to say to someone who believes HR's are comparable to SB's I'd politely ask them to move the discussion to the Fantasy Basebally section

Not that we'd do 6 trades in the next couple months anyway, but do the Twins & Dodgers really take those packages? Don't know unless we ask!! Its obviously a joke post, but Kemp and Loney are hated in the Dodger locker room and I'm assuming Coletti would love Lee. Lieber fills out the back of their rotation and is insurance incase Schmidt isn't ready, Kemp is possibly the odd man out in the OF and Gallagher and Colvin are upper level B prospects to replace the loss of young SP and CF. They are a vet loving org and Lee gives them that. As far as the Twins, it all hinges on how they view Marmol. If they view him as high as someone in this thread, its a no brainer for them :lol: But seriously, they could view him as the heir apperant for Nathan, hes cheap and under control for a long time (he actually out VORPed Nathan last year). They are very much a tools and defense organization and have been searching for a CF intently this offseason, so they most likely love Pie. As for Veal, hes arguably our best pitching prospect. IMO from a Twins (scouty/toolsy) viewpoint that deal should hold up with some of the recently rumored NYs/Boston offers. Additional plus is Santana would go to the NL.

you just personally attacked like 5 people with one post. Impressive. More like 5555 people.

Well if we want to go crazy... Padres get: Wilson, Murton, Patterson Cubs get: Greene and Hairston Pirates get: Cedeno, Ceda Twins get: Pie, Marmol, Veal Cubs get: Santana Rockies get: Marshall and Burke Cubs get Baker/Smith and Stewart Dodgers get: Lee, Gallagher, Colvin, Lieber(with his approval) Cubs get: Loney, Kemp, Billingsley Mets get: Marquis+$2M Cubs get: Heilman Rangers get: Dempster Cubs get: Teagarden Kemp Fukudome ARAM Soriano Loney Greene Soto DeRosa Santana Z Hill Lilly Billingsley Wood Howry Heilman Wuertz Eyre Ascaino Ward Baker/Smith Stewart Hairston Blanco Theriot And believe it or not, we actually save money.

You forget the fact that this job is just a placeholder until Selig resigns and MacPhail becomes the commissioner. If it weren't for that then I'd completely agree with you.

+1

That's selling the level of play across the Pacific short. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1330 Clay also addresses the size of Japanese ballparks in that article. Also, wasn't Fukudome's home park one of the most pitcher friendly parks in the entire country? Yes, IIRC it isn't "one of" it is "the". Pretty close to an MLB park.

1. I don't care about ERA. 2. I don't care too much about WHIP. 3. The last column actually hurts your case. I understand why you don't care about 1 and 2, but I don't understand why it matters since there are no other stats out there that is gonna put Santana behind any other pitcher in baseball. ERA+ isn't an end all stat, but it's tough to ignore numbers that high. Also, what other start pitches 200+ innings and keeps his WHIP under 1.00 three straight years? It's sick. I'd give up a lot for 220 IP and 250 K's, even if for just one year You're right we can't ignore ERA+. Jake Peavy had him beat least season. And had more Ks. And had a lower WHIP oh come on, we both know you're smarter than that. Using one year to determine worth? Here let me try: Santana had an ERA+ of 161 in 2006, while Peavy's was 99. I win! But I don't care about ERA+, so you don't win. because it hurts your argument No, because ERA is a bad way to predict future ERA. And to address the +, park factors usually suck.

I'd wonder if the Twins would be interested in Marmol as a replacement for Nathan. A deal centering on Pie and Marmol might interest them. And while we're up there, lets get them to send us Everett (with his approval) and we'll throw Theriot in!

I agree about protecting Pie, but he has to earn in ST. Its more important to get as many runners on base for Lee, Ramirez, and whoever the #5 is than it is to protect Pie. Bottom line is right now he is not one of our better hitters. He could become one, but right now he isn't. Derosa right now has a 3 year split of .288/.359 which is pretty much identical to what he put up last year outside of a higher OBP last season. Our top two hitters in the lineup need to create as many run scoring chances as possible for our "best hitters" Lee and Ramirez. Derosa, Murton, and Fukudome give us that. By protection I meant batting him 7th, NOT 2nd.

Few points: 1) Greene overrated? By who? I don't even see him rated/talked about that much. 2) What makes you think he'd hit top of order? 3) We went down in 3 straight, not 4. Yeah Greene would probably hit 7th or 8th for the Cubs depending on if you want him to hit infront or behind Pie. If the Cubs aquired Greene and Pie has a half decent season the depth of the lineup would be unreal. If the cubs acquire Greene and not Roberts, Greene hits 5th or 6th in our lineup (where he hit last year), not 7th or 8th. Soriano Fukudome Lee ARam Greene Soto Pie DeRosa Thats how I'd do it. I would still prefer Derosa Fuku Lee Aram Soriano Soto Greene Pie I didn't put Pie 8th because I'd rather him not hit in front of the pitcher. I'd like to give him some protection so pitchers won't be able to just throw him junk. I'd be fine flipping DeRo and Soto. Even if DeRosa hits as well as he did last year, hes still not anywhere near one of our better hitters. Our best hitters should be getting the most at bats, hence our best hitters should be at the top of the order.

Few points: 1) Greene overrated? By who? I don't even see him rated/talked about that much. 2) What makes you think he'd hit top of order? 3) We went down in 3 straight, not 4. Yeah Greene would probably hit 7th or 8th for the Cubs depending on if you want him to hit infront or behind Pie. If the Cubs aquired Greene and Pie has a half decent season the depth of the lineup would be unreal. If the cubs acquire Greene and not Roberts, Greene hits 5th or 6th in our lineup (where he hit last year), not 7th or 8th. Soriano Fukudome Lee ARam Greene Soto Pie DeRosa Thats how I'd do it.

I certainly wouldn't mind if they knocked down Mullens regardless of whether the construction extends that far. But that's just me. That would be the 7/11 gone on the one end, right? Good riddance to that. A couple sports shops gone on the other end, I think. Eh.....looks like it isn't in the area of any of the more well known clubs. I have no idea if this would be approved or not. Maybe Goose Island is given a good location inside the new complex. According to that sports corner actually stays, thats the cut out on the north east corner of clark and addison (upper left part of the border. 7-11 is at the upper right along with the parking lot, thats gone. Inbetween them off the top of my head is a starbucks and a ticket broker, and possibly a small sports store. Really nothing along addison is worth a damn.

It would be trading from areas of depth to fill a tremendous hole. Murton will be a little used 4th outfielder, Cedeno would no longer be needed with Greene, Patterson is lost on the depth chart with Pie and Colvin, and Marshall would likely be battling Lieber, Gallagher and others for the last rotation spot. Khalil Greene on the road in 2007: .288 .322 .519 .840 Khalil Greene on the road career: .280 .335 .515 .850 Remembering that Greene plays most of his games in the toughest hitter's park in baseball and the toughest hitting division in MLB and that the NL Central is arguably the best hitter's division in baseball, the numbers Green could put up playing for the Cubs in a very solid line up all the way through could REALLY pump his numbers up. If you add Greene's bat (ignore the great defense he plays for a moment) to the Cubs line up, the Cubs have Soriano, Lee, Ramirez and Greene with the potential to have .500+ SLG and Fukudome, Pie, DeRosa and Soto all with the potential of mid to high .400 SLG. Soriano, DeRosa, Lee, Ramirez, Fukudome, Greene, Pie, Soto And wow, what a stellar defense the SP's would have behind them. It's a lot to give up for Greene, but none of those guys are someone who turns me off such a deal. To add on, Greenes offensive is pull fly balls, he far and away leads SSs and is in the upper echelon of the league in fb%. His offense is supressed by Petco more than a normal players and would be inflated by Wrigley more than a normal players.

1)Absofreakinlutely and 2)it would all depend on how he views Cedeno. If he thinks Cedeno can translate it into the majors, then possibly. If we're going to get (go for) Greene, why not offer Theriot first and try to keep Cedeno? Heres why.

Thats how he always looks.

Haven't you been paying attention? It's now about a blockbuster Santana-Lincecum-Cain-Bedard-Roberts-Griffey-Crawford-ARod for Patterson-Murton-Cedeno-Gallagher-Marshall-Lieber-Colvin trade Man, I'm glad we're going to get this done without giving up Pie and Hill..... Hendry truly is amazing. Yeah, but is Griffey that much of an upgrade over Pie? He's at least a marginal upgrade over Pie, maybe even a significant upgrade - it just depends on what you define marginal and significant as. He's definitely not a minor upgrade, though. :wink: MGL has his UZR as -15, arm at -5, baserunning at -4, and offense as +4. Meph's post reminded me to clarify that MGLs quotes are based on Griffey as a RF, although any marginal positional offensive gain by moving to CF is going to be offset by the marginal defensive loss.

Haven't you been paying attention? It's now about a blockbuster Santana-Lincecum-Cain-Bedard-Roberts-Griffey-Crawford-ARod for Patterson-Murton-Cedeno-Gallagher-Marshall-Lieber-Colvin trade Man, I'm glad we're going to get this done without giving up Pie and Hill..... Hendry truly is amazing. Yeah, but is Griffey that much of an upgrade over Pie? He's at least a marginal upgrade over Pie, maybe even a significant upgrade - it just depends on what you define marginal and significant as. He's definitely not a minor upgrade, though. :wink: MGL has his UZR as -15, arm at -5, baserunning at -4, and offense as +4.

1)Absofreakinlutely and 2)it would all depend on how he views Cedeno. If he thinks Cedeno can translate it into the majors, then possibly.

GRITTINESS

It matters, I care about the psyche of pitchers and the dirt in the catchers box. I mean if pitchers have to constantly look over their shoulder at first base then in 60 years they are going to have major neck problems. Major. Not to mention the pychiatrist bills. And if catchers have to adjust their feet to get ready to throw out a runner, well hell, then there will be chaos in the catchers box. Dirt will be moving this way and that, it will be pure madness.