BleedCubbieBlue81
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The middle ground might be that each side decides to agree to disagree. Or agree that the rest of the season might open up opportunities for Clemens or Carp to be a clear cut winner. I sure hope that is the case because if Clemens wins because of ERA alone than the whole process will look pretty questionable. I can agree to that. It's obvious there is no middle ground in this discussion. I hope one or the other runs away with it, so there's no debate at the end of the year. But the debate now isn't just because of Clemens ERA. He's also among the league leaders in almost every other category. His ERA isn't the only reason I think he's leading right now. It's the fact that he's the most dominant pitcher in baseball.
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Why rish the injury to your star pitcher if you don't have to? His job isn't go to out and try to win the Cy Young by blowing out his arm. His job is to put his team in a position to win. And he's done that... every single game. If LaRussa wants to burn out Carp's arm just so he can win some stupid award, go right ahead. No Cubs fan will ever complain about a Cards player being used incorrectly. But it seems pretty moronic to do that to a guy that's only gone over 200 innings ONCE in his career. Especially since you're going to need him to be fresh if you want to win the world series. And we went over this yesterday. Clemens has three games where he went 8 innings. If 3 hits and 2 earned runs is considered a bad start for Clemens, then you're basically saying he deserves it right now. He's had one bad start following an 8 inning game, and that was against the Cardinals. Many guys have bad starts against the Cards. He only gave up 4 runs that game too. And you keep saying he's only gone 8 innings a few times, but he's also NEVER been knocked out early this year, which can't be said about any other pitcher. These are all reasons he's leading the Cy Young right now.
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That's fine, but you don't know that for sure. Garner might not ever let him finish. It's not that he can't finish, because I'm sure Clemens could finish a game, even at 43 years old. It'd be foolish to believe otherwise. But maybe Garner is just protecting him because he knows they'll need him for the playoffs, or to get to the playoffs. You pay your bullpen for a reason... so that your starters don't have to throw a complete game.
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That's fine, but you don't know that for sure. Garner might not ever let him finish. It's not that he can't finish, because I'm sure Clemens could finish a game, even at 43 years old. It'd be foolish to believe otherwise. But maybe Garner is just protecting him because he knows they'll need him for the playoffs, or to get to the playoffs.
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Now the question is, do we re-sign Nomar at a discount? I say yes. But I'm sure there are probably 10 threads on that already. Is it just me, or did that stadium seem empty last night? Aren't the Stros in a playoff race?
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Todd Hundley Arrested for DUI
BleedCubbieBlue81 replied to Mark Priors Calves's topic in Chicago Cubs Talk
It's unfortunate that his daughter was in the car. This story could've been a lot worse than it was. -
No one here is brushing Carpenter off. If you read some of my posts you'll see that I've said I believe Carpenter will win the award by the end of the year. He's an incredible pitcher. I'll be the first to admit that last year I didn't think he was the real deal. But now, he's proved that he is. But right now, Clemens is having the better year. Besides wins (a stat that Clemens cannot earn, he can only lose), he's better than, or right with Carpenter in every category. Yes, McGwire broke the home run record. But guess what, so did Sosa. Sosa also lead McGwire in RBI's, Avg., and had way more steals. He lead McGwire in most offensive categories except home runs, which he only lost by four, and on base percentage stats. And Sosa lead his team to the playoffs. (I know the Cards are going to the playoffs, but there is a good chance the Astros are too. And besides, a pitcher can't lead his team to the playoffs since he only pitches 1 out of every 5 games.) If Carpenter can have the same type of ERA as Clemens, and both of them have the best ERA in the modern era, then we'd be having a different discussion. But he doesn't. Clemens is making the rest of the league look silly in that category. And if Clemens wasn't getting .94 runs per game in support earlier in the year, or is his bullpen hadn't blown the game for him on several occasions, it's pretty obvious that he'd have 16-18 wins by now. Again, I think Carp will win it by the end of the year, but right now, you can't discredit what Clemens is doing because he doesn't wear red.
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I still don't understand your idea of him being coddled. Carp goes what, 2/3 of an inning more per start than Clemens? Yeah, he has no complete games. But he also hasn't been knocked out in the third inning like Carpenter has. A guy that can give you seven innings of scoreless baseball seemingly every time is more than doing his job. And no, it's not a full run. It's .93 runs. When was the last time a starting pitcher had a .93 lead on the rest of the league? He has a bigger lead on second place than second place has on 16th place. That's completely dominating every other pitcher. He has 11 wins right now. Carp has 17. But has Carp ever gone 8 scoreless innings and not gotten a decision? Stuff like that happens to Clemens a lot. He can't be responsible for terrible run support. They'll both finish with more wins than they have. The difference, Carpenter plays for the Cardinals (probably the best team in baseball) Clemens has pitched for what up until a few weeks ago, was one of the worst teams. If his ERA stays where it is, Carp will have to do something amazing to win the Cy Young. Yes, I know Clemens name is helping him along in this. But he's posting the best ERA in the modern era. Lots of pitchers have won 17 games by this point. But how many have had an ERA this low this late in the season? And you keep pointing out that he doesn't have any complete games. Who cares? He puts his team into position to win every time. He goes into the 7th or 8th inning almost every game. If Garner won't let him finish it, it's not his fault. If LaRussa wants to burn out Carpenter instead of resting him for the playoffs, that's his choice. But Garner is making it clear that he doesn't want to run his 43 year old into the ground. Let me reiterate what I said before. I believe Carpenter will win the Cy Young this year. I'm just stating that right now, he's not the frontrunner in my opinion. Carp's having a good year, but Clemens is having an amazing year.
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He gave up three hits and only two earned runs that game. I wouldn't call that a bad start. If three hits and two earned runs are considered one of his worst starts, then you are just helping the argument that he deserves the Cy Young right now. Who cares about hits? I thought that ERA was going to be the reason that Clemens wins the Cy Young........... or does ERA not matter when it works against Clemens? 2 earned runs in 6 innings equates to a 3.00 ERA. That's not Cy Young material, this year. And yes, the 3 runs allowed was one of his worst outings this year. And you're right, that's pretty impressive when you can call that one of your worst outings, but Carpenter has been equally impressive, in my opinion. Not only his ERA. Another reason he's right there in the Cy Young race is he leads the majors in WHIP too. (Granted Carp is right on his heels.) And he didn't give up 3 runs, he gave up 2. The unearned run doesn't count against him. He can't be held accountable for someone else's error. And I'm not arguing that Carp hasn't been exceptional this year. Any other year and he'd be a shoe in for the Cy Young. But Clemens ERA isn't just close to a whole run better than Carps, it's close to a whole run better than EVERYONE in the league. He has a .93 run advantage on Carp. Who does Carpenter have a .93 ERA advantage on? Carlos Zambrano, who is currently 16th in the majors in ERA. So Clemens has a bigger lead on Carp than Carp has on the person ranked all the way down at 16th.
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He gave up three hits and only two earned runs that game. I wouldn't call that a bad start. If three hits and two earned runs are considered one of his worst starts, then you are just helping the argument that he deserves the Cy Young right now.
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Two years ago (I believe), Lee had 21 steals, and 19 the year before that. He's not Rickey Henderson in any stretch of the imagination, but he's not slow. And Barry Bonds is the best player in the league. All around or otherwise. I'd say Pujols is 2nd. And then the rest of the field can argue their way into third.
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I'm in as Special Sauce. Go Bears! Go Niners! :oops:
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I don't know if it's that Clemens NEEDS to be coddled, or Garner just does it anyway. Dusty does the same type of thing every once in a while with his guys. He'll rest someone who really doesn't need it. But then again, he won't rest DLee when he REALLY needs it.
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If I had a guy like Clemens, I'd probably do the same thing. That's one guy you don't want hurt when you are in a playoff race. If LaRussa was smart, he might start cutting down Carp's innings too. With the Cards so far ahead, I'd let him go 6, and then shut him down. He could always use the rest for the playoffs, and it would cut down on the injury risk.
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Stupid Q from a stupid Cards fan
BleedCubbieBlue81 replied to topher76's topic in General Baseball Talk
It's simple, Mayor Daley and the neighborhood organization. They can't do anything without the neighborhood voting on it first. The neighborhood doesn't want night games, so the Cubs have to make consessions to be able to have the few that they do have. And Daley is just a jerk. -
Maybe Garner won't let him finish, we don't know. He might believe in their bullpen. I'm pretty certain that Clemens could've finished at least one of those games. But Garner might not want to overuse his horse with his team in a playoff race. Especially if that horse is 43 years old and nearing the end of his career.
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Then why didn't he stick around to try to get the win? Obviously, his team was still very much in all of those games (as you pointed out). You honestly expect a starter throw a complete game every start? He put his team in position to win EVERY GAME. It's not his fault Houston's offense was HORRIBLE for 3/4 of the year. Those numbers are staggering, I don't care who he is. I hate Clemens, but those numbers don't lie.
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I'm strictly comparing Clemens to Carpenter, and not the rest of the league. Compared to Carpenter, Clemens hasn't been as durable, or given himself a chance to win as often. Clemens is actually 43 years old, but that has nothing to do with who should win the Cy Young Award. Another quirky stat: Clemens has only pitched 3 games ALL YEAR against teams that would be in the playoffs, if the playoffs started today (2 against St. Louis, 1 against Atlanta). He's 1-0 (his team scored 4 runs for him in that game), and his team is 1-2 in those games. Carpenter has pitched 7 games against teams that would be in the playoffs, if the playoffs started today. He's 4-2, and his team is 5-2 in those games. Clemens is 3-3 against the NL Central. Carpenter is 10-0 vs. the NL Central. Thank Carpenter has had something to do with the Cards' big NL Central lead? Think being on the Cardinals has something to do with Carpenter's 17 wins?
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A pitcher that can give you 7 scoreless innings almost every time is not durable? So he pulled himself out saturday with a bad back... after 8 shut out innings. A pitcher that can go 8 scoreless with a bad back is incredible. How many starters really go longer into games than him? It's not many. He can go late into games, and he usually does. He's currently 8th in the NL in innings pitched, and he has one less start than 3 of the guys ahead of him. Oh yeah, and he's 41 years old. I think he's one of the most durable pitchers out there. He hasn't put up the innings that Carp has, but he's not the same age as Carp, and he's definitely not on the same team as him. EDIT: Clemens IP each game this year (posted because it's simply staggering. He does not get knocked out of games early): Game number 1: 7.0 2. 7.0 3. 7.0 4. 7.0 5. 7.0 6. 7.0 7. 7.0 8. 8.0 9. 6.0 10. 5.0 11. 8.0 12. 5.0 13. 7.0 14. 6.0 15. 7.0 16. 7.0 17. 7.0 18. 7.0 19. 7.0 20. 6.0 21. 7.0 22. 7.0 23. 7.0 24. 8.0 And through all those starts, he gave up two or less runs in all but two games. One game he gave up 3 (against the Cubs), and one game he gave up 4 (against the Cards).
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The Cubs also got Nomar, Wood, and Williamson. Nomar is only barely starting to find his swing again, which he hasn't had all year... Wood and williamson are out of the bullpen, which only helps you not lose games, they can't win anything for you... Exactly. Nomar has been decent since his return, but he still can't play everyday. Wood can only pitch 2 innings every 3 games or so, and Williamson hasn't really pitched at the major league level in how many months? Beltran may not have been the only reason they got to the playoffs last year, but he upgraded their offense and defense. He slid everyone else into roles they were more comfortable with, and that helped everyone on that team to play good late in the season.
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Is this a case of Clemens being out of gas late in the game and having to come out, or the manager afraid of overusing a 40+ year old pitcher. Clemens went 8 scoreless innings the other day, and got a no decision. This has happened many times. I don't know what it is now, but I remember earlier in the year he was getting 0.94 runs per game in support. How is a pitcher supposed to win with that? If you give up 1 run per game, but your team can't score 1 for you, then that's just not right. His ERA is staggering right now. I still can't believe it. But I think the fact that Carp has more innings has to do with La Russa being willing to let Carp go longer than Houston lets Clemens go. That's just my opinion though. Carp's 6 complete games are amazing though, especially with this much time left in the season. He has an amazing ERA as well, 2nd best in the league. Pretty much any other year, he'd be leading in that category, and would be running away with the Cy Young. But right now, the nod has to go to Clemens. But I will say this, I believe by the end of the year, Carpenter will have the better resume, and will win the Cy Young. He will easily win 20 games, and I think Clemens' ERA will come back to earth at least a little bit. So right now, Clemens is leading, but Carpenter will win the Cy Young.
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Morris is a very good pitcher, he was just facing the wrong team. Before I get jumped on for being a homer, let me explain. Morris almost REFUSES to walk anyone. He will throw the ball over the plate no matter what. He was facing a team that REFUSES to take walks. These guys will swing at a bouncing pitch because Dusty feels a hit is better than a walk. He should've thrown a little more out of the zone to get our hitters to chase bad pitches. A few down and away sliders could do him a great deal of good against the Cubs. Throw the ball out of the zone, and our hitters will try to go get it. But instead he threw some over the plate, and our hitters were ready for 2 strike fastballs. He still looked good, but he could've dominated that game had he been willing to accept the occasional walk for trying to lure our guys out of the zone.
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Houston also got the shot in the arm that is Carlos Beltran. The Cubs got... Matt Lawton. Don't get me wrong, Lawton's a very good player. But we could never expect the same second half out of him that Beltran had last year.
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It was put up or shut up time a long time ago for the Cubs. And they definitely shut up. Halplm is right. Even if we sweep Houston, which will NOT be as easy as some think, we could still be 6 behind in the wild card race. All we'd do is hurt Houston's chances a little bit. Sure this is a big series, but we can't start talking sweep until we at least win one game in the series.
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Yeah, I knew this would happen... false hope. Don't get too sucked in guys. This is the same team that just dropped 8 in a row to some bad teams. Now we have to play contenders? Sure, we beat St. Louis, but we're not done with them this year either. We're currently 6.5 games out of the wild card, with a large group of teams ahead of us. Beating St. Louis is just the Cubs way of making the end of the year heartbreak that much worse. Call my pessimistic, but I don't see them pulling off what Houston did last year. If they can prove me wrong, great. But I'm not going to hold out hope for a team that specializes in breaking my heart every year. Especially not when they are down 6 and a half games.