These two guys have as much proof against them as Sammy. Piazza especially. There are all sorts of stories of his bachne. You're right, and later in my post, I didn't count Sammy among the 9 out of 21 users. But, if I didn't mention anything next to his name, someone would have said something to the effect of, "Everybody knows..." It's pure conjecture at this point. Unfortunately, I think he's going to be kept out of the HoF based on pure conjecture. I don't know. There's rock-solid proof on Bonds, Arod, Manny, and Clemens, and McGwire all but admitted usage, but Sammy has never been linked to any steroid story, nor was he named in the Mitchell report.