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I really hate calling Marquis our very own

How can you love something ok? Chip Carey was a bad announcer, and I'm glad I don't have to hear his voice on the air anymore.

You forgot Ward on your bench.

Northerners = winners Southerners = losers White Sox = winners Cubs = losers a vote for Rocket is a vote for the Sox wouldn't that make voting for you a vote for a loser?

Its too bad you weren't a choice

Lets hope this doesn't stick

Probably the worst post I've read here in a while and that's saying a lot. other than "contending" what has cuban done? he makes a fool of himself publicly by running his ignorant mouth. no owner in all of professional sports is despised more by his peers than he is. he accrues more league fines than anyone else...oh yeah, his teams perennially disappoint. in fact, two of the biggest choke jobs in sports history (outside ny v. bos) have come at the hands of teams in his control in the last two years. the only thing good about mark cuban is watching that stupid look on his face as the teams he puts together gag in the clutch. if he didn't baby his players and let someone who knew a thing or two about run the team (without his constant moronic interjection), maybe they'd get their act together. cuban would bring us a world of attention, and he'd spend the money to keep us in the mix, but the guy's a jinx and we already got one of those working against us, we don't need another. We shouldn't want Cuban because he's a jinx? I like how your first post criticizes the Mavericks, even though they had the best record in the NBA this year. Laughable logic.

Yeah. I dislike Berkman though. He just rubs me the wrong way for some reason. Probably because of that game years back when he pretended to get hit in the head by a pitch from Remlinger, only for the tape to show it clearly didn't. I'm almost sure thats how it happened, because later Rem came out of the dugout and called him out on it. I think most Cub fans started to hate Berkman then.

Bouncing a guy with a history of injuries back and forth between roles all year, then making him throw 7 2/3 innings out of the pen in 12 days is never a good idea.

True. At the time I found it odd that so few here were dead set against the Soriano signing, and odd that even fewer were in favor of a rebuilding year. These still seem like sensible positions to me, would've expected more support for them. I was begrudginly accepting of the Soriano deal, mostly because they were so desperate for an extra bat and it appeared quite obvious they were raising payroll. I would also add that I'm confident Wilken will turn up a couple good young cheap bats in the next couple years, so when Soriano is really a waste, it'll be offset by those guys. And I'm still not in favor of a complete rebuilding. First, I think it'll be impossible. This isn't a team with 37 year olds like Kevin Tapani leading the way. The core of the club is still late 20's to early 30's. And I think this team could be in for a quick turn around with a solid GM. I agree - no complete rebuilding. But we should accept that we're not a WS contender and play for next year. I never understood the "World Series" contender line. If last year proved anything, if you make it to the playoffs, anything can happen.

apparently fist-pumping and intangibles are more important than being a good baseball player

Yeah, I really didn't get the Abreu explanation. He lists reasons why Abreu has been a great player for his career, then says he's overrated because he doesn't have a "Derek Jeter gene." Such a ridiculous argument, I really wish Jeter would have been a Blue Jay or Royal his whole career.

if hancock wasn't drunk and the tow truck driver/driver was negligent, would you be ok with suing them? Perhaps, but I see no negligence in this circumstance. well, if a guy on the internet who read a couple articles about it doesn't see any negligence then why even have a trial? im sure abuck12345 is an experienced lawyer on the other hand, right? since you want to be a dick about it, i graduated from law school two weeks ago. A lawyer who has never practice law - the most dangerous type there is. Huh?

im sure abuck12345 is an experienced lawyer on the other hand, right? since you want to be a dick about it, i graduated from law school two weeks ago. Who's the man now, dog? Yeah, not like he was being sarcastic (note the 12345 on abuck's name) or anything.

Marshall has lost effectiveness on his fastball, has just as many durability issues as Guzman, has worse stuff and command, and does not possess the ceiling that Guzman has. I don't see how you could not consider Guzman the better option. We don't know Lou is bringing Marshall up. For that matter, we really don't know exactly what is going to happen at all, or for how long it might be, or what will happen as a result of it. This is alot of hubbub with little facts behind it, at this point. I'm not sure if you were quoting me or just addressing the general thread consensus, but the argument is that Guzman is a better option than Marshall. Who knows what will happen with the fifth spot, I'm just responding to what was said.

Marshall has lost effectiveness on his fastball, has just as many durability issues as Guzman, has worse stuff and command, and does not possess the ceiling that Guzman has. I don't see how you could not consider Guzman the better option.

I'll take 1 ER per every 3 innings pitched by the bullpen every time out. I'm not trying to say you should be confident in the bullpen or that its a strong pen, I was arguing your original point about today's game in the scenario you presented. That's all.

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing. Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit. If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen? If the Sox pen doesn't decide to suck like the Cubs one does today we lose 6-5, how would everyones tune sound then? We blow game after game and its not okay anymore. The "tune" wouldn't change at all. If we lost 6-5, it'd mainly be on the shoulders of our offense and starting pitching. Its not like it was 5-0 and the bullpen gave up all the runs, Marquis left with it tied. Wow, so you really would start complaining about the offense who scored a very winnable 5 runs and Marquis who had been our best pitcher all year? You would not be dissatisfied with the fact Howry blows another game in the 8th inning? I would complain about Marquis giving up 5 earned runs, yes. What does his pitching this year have to do with anything? We're talking about one game. If you lose 6-5 in a game where your starter gave up 5 runs, he is on the hook for a bad outing. What are you trying to argue exactly? I'm arguing the fact that Marquis' outing was an anomaly while the bullpen has been a perpetual problem that has cost us at least 10 games. I would forgive Marquis for a rough outing before I forgave Howry screwing over the team once again. But that wasn't the original argument. We weren't talking about how Marquis has pitched this year, we were talking about one game. You were saying everyone would change their stance on this move if the offense didn't come through, but thats wrong. You are arguing that: The starter gives up 5 runs in 5 IP. The bullpen gives up 1 run in 4 IP. (which, if we lost 6-5, it would have been) The offense scores 5 runs. And its the pen's fault. Don't put words into my mouth to provide adequate basis for your argument. I am NOT talking about one game, I am talking about one game after many. If the bullpen had blown ANOTHER lead, its not like I'm examining this one game arbitrarily. I have, since the beginning taken the whole season into account. I pointed out this game particularly because Howry had blown another one for the but its kinda okay because the Cubs won and he will get back on track camp. The bullpen didn't blow a lead though. It was tied 5-5. How am I putting words in your mouth? You originally said that our "tune" would have changed if the bullpen was at fault for a 6-5 loss today, and in no way would it have been on the bullpen for a loss.

He's not been determined to be an "effective starter" based on 2 starts. what? I'm determining him to be effective based on his talent + his 3 starts this year + a body of minor league work. And it doesn't really matter if he's effective or not, his replacement is probably going to be worse than he would have been in the same situation. His ERA was over 10 in the minors this year. What on earth are you talking about? He's had 2 good starts this year, last year he was terrible. You seem to want to put him on the level of a Lilly or a Marquis. He's a young arm who recently had a couple good starts. Hopefully it turns into more. No one is saying Guzman is dominant or equal to Lilly/Marquis/Glavine.

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing. Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit. If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen? If the Sox pen doesn't decide to suck like the Cubs one does today we lose 6-5, how would everyones tune sound then? We blow game after game and its not okay anymore. The "tune" wouldn't change at all. If we lost 6-5, it'd mainly be on the shoulders of our offense and starting pitching. Its not like it was 5-0 and the bullpen gave up all the runs, Marquis left with it tied. Wow, so you really would start complaining about the offense who scored a very winnable 5 runs and Marquis who had been our best pitcher all year? You would not be dissatisfied with the fact Howry blows another game in the 8th inning? I would complain about Marquis giving up 5 earned runs, yes. What does his pitching this year have to do with anything? We're talking about one game. If you lose 6-5 in a game where your starter gave up 5 runs, he is on the hook for a bad outing. What are you trying to argue exactly? I'm arguing the fact that Marquis' outing was an anomaly while the bullpen has been a perpetual problem that has cost us at least 10 games. I would forgive Marquis for a rough outing before I forgave Howry screwing over the team once again. But that wasn't the original argument. We weren't talking about how Marquis has pitched this year, we were talking about one game. You were saying everyone would change their stance on this move if the offense didn't come through, but thats wrong. You are arguing that: The starter gives up 5 runs in 5 IP. The bullpen gives up 1 run in 4 IP. (which, if we lost 6-5, it would have been) The offense scores 5 runs. And its the pen's fault.

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing. Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit. If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen? If the Sox pen doesn't decide to suck like the Cubs one does today we lose 6-5, how would everyones tune sound then? We blow game after game and its not okay anymore. The "tune" wouldn't change at all. If we lost 6-5, it'd mainly be on the shoulders of our offense and starting pitching. Its not like it was 5-0 and the bullpen gave up all the runs, Marquis left with it tied. Wow, so you really would start complaining about the offense who scored a very winnable 5 runs and Marquis who had been our best pitcher all year? You would not be dissatisfied with the fact Howry blows another game in the 8th inning? I would complain about Marquis giving up 5 earned runs, yes. What does his pitching this year have to do with anything? We're talking about one game. If you lose 6-5 in a game where your starter gave up 5 runs, he is on the hook for a bad outing. What are you trying to argue exactly?

He said effective starter, how is that making him out to be like Tom Glavine?

Ohman has been outstanding against left handed hitters for several years now, and this year is no different. They're 2 for 20 with a 2B and 3 BB against him going into today, that's good no matter how much you remember a bad outing. Howry's stuff isn't any different than year's past. He's not perfect, and that's why he's a situational reliever. His BABIP isn't in line with the amount of line drives he's giving up, his BAA will start coming down before too long, regardless of how angry everyone gets when he gets hit. If you aren't going to be satisfied with a combination of Howry, Cotts, and Marmol getting you through the 7th, then you're being too difficult to please. Nobody is all that great until you get to the back of the pen, that's why they're middle relievers. Even then, Cotts has been a good reliever, Marmol has dynamic stuff(much like Wuertz), and Howry has been 8th inning caliber for several previous years. Getting back to the real point, if you're that dissatisfied with that setup, is Guzman really going to make you feel better about the pen? If the Sox pen doesn't decide to suck like the Cubs one does today we lose 6-5, how would everyones tune sound then? We blow game after game and its not okay anymore. The "tune" wouldn't change at all. If we lost 6-5, it'd mainly be on the shoulders of our offense and starting pitching. Its not like it was 5-0 and the bullpen gave up all the runs, Marquis left with it tied.

Change for a sake of change is rarely a good idea.

Because you blatantly contradicted yourself in that reply. There is a difference between someone who "sucks" and someone who is "not all that bad." Which is it?