8/28 RYNE SANDBERG DAY!! 1:20 pm CT, WGN

[Crash]

Got to love Dusty. Even in a game we are leading 12-3 he manages to do something stupid and dangerous.

Oh come on. Z wanted to finish the 8th and I'd say he's deserved it.

 

He should not have even have come out for the 8th inning. We had a 9 run lead in a game that means NOTHING! Why put more pitches on Zambrano's arm?

[Crash]

Atta-way Cubbies!!

 

Pad those stats now that the games mean nothing!! Whooooohoooo! :roll:

 

Hey, the better Cedeno plays now the worse Baker looks for glueing him to the bench.

[Fred Hornkohl]

CUBS haven't made 15 hits in a game since last Tues, 23 Aug, vs. Atlanta (10-1, 15 hits)

[otis89]

Nice play, Dempster. :D

[lowest]

nifty grab by dempster

[Fred Hornkohl]

Got to love Dusty. Even in a game we are leading 12-3 he manages to do something stupid and dangerous.

Oh come on. Z wanted to finish the 8th and I'd say he's deserved it.

 

He should not have even have come out for the 8th inning. We had a 9 run lead in a game that means NOTHING! Why put more pitches on Zambrano's arm?

 

Zambrano has averaged 106 pitches per start. Today he threw 108. I believe your perception of the risk involved here is considerably overestimated.

[otis89]

Cubs win!! Cubs win!!

[Fred Hornkohl]

TOP OF THE NINTH INNING

 

Dempster in to pitch, McClain in at 1b for the CUBS

Encarnacion grounded out to the pitcher, 1-3

Harris, pinch hitting for Easley, grounded out to the pitcher, 1-3

Castillo grounded out to the pitcher, 1-3

 

0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, 0 men left on base

 

           1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9     R  H E
Florida    0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0     3  6 1 
CUBS       1 0 0 0 2 1 8 2 x    14 15 0 

 

CUBS WIN !! CUBS WIN !! CUBS WIN !!

 

W: Zambrano (11-5)

S: none

L: Beckett (12-8 )

 

T: 2:52

A: 38,763

 

Home runs: CUBS: Lee (38 & 39), Florida: Delgado (26)

 

pitcher     IP  H  R ER BB  K HR PIT
Zambrano   8.0  6  3  3  2  6  1 108 
Dempster   1.0  0  0  0  0  0  0  14 

[Crash]

Got to love Dusty. Even in a game we are leading 12-3 he manages to do something stupid and dangerous.

Oh come on. Z wanted to finish the 8th and I'd say he's deserved it.

 

He should not have even have come out for the 8th inning. We had a 9 run lead in a game that means NOTHING! Why put more pitches on Zambrano's arm?

 

Zambrano has averaged 106 pitches per start. Today he threw 108. I believe your perception of the risk involved here is considerably overestimated.

 

Was it as risky as letting Prior pitch 131 last week? No. And sure it may be a bit paranoid. But considering how important Carlos is I would want the Cubs to be as paranoid about wear and tear as possible in what is meaningless games.

 

Sending Carlos out for the 8th inning with a 9 run lead can produce nothing positive and only risk some big negatives.

[Marco4]

This is my first time so please be nice!!! :lol:

 

Congrats on your first game thread. May you have many other happy ones in the future. (Please! Not just for your sake)

 

I wouldn't have done this, but my first was the St Louis one that snapped the 8-game loss streak, so I was WAY nervous.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Was it as risky as letting Prior pitch 131 last week? No. And sure it may be a bit paranoid. But considering how important Carlos is I would want the Cubs to be as paranoid about wear and tear as possible in what is meaningless games.

 

I don't want CUBS management being paranoid about anything. Paranoia is a mental illness that requires treatment.

 

 

Sending Carlos out for the 8th inning with a 9 run lead can produce nothing positive and only risk some big negatives.

 

Letting Carlos get in the usual innings (pitches) in for the day that he has gotten used to every start IS a positive result. It could be argued that every time he winds up and throws a pitch he risks blowing his arm out forever. I stand by my original statement..... you are overestimating the level of risk here.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Was it as risky as letting Prior pitch 131 last week? No. And sure it may be a bit paranoid. But considering how important Carlos is I would want the Cubs to be as paranoid about wear and tear as possible in what is meaningless games.

 

I don't want CUBS management being paranoid about anything. Paranoia is a mental illness that requires treatment.

 

 

Sending Carlos out for the 8th inning with a 9 run lead can produce nothing positive and only risk some big negatives.

 

Letting Carlos get in the usual innings (pitches) in for the day that he has gotten used to every start IS a positive result. It could be argued that every time he winds up and throws a pitch he risks blowing his arm out forever. I stand by my original statement..... you are overestimating the level of risk here.

 

Pitching is an unnatural motion. No harm was going to come to Carlos by stopping at 89 pitches, but it's possible that it could going beyond that. Given the massive lead, it was unnecessary.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Pitching is an unnatural motion. No harm was going to come to Carlos by stopping at 89 pitches, but it's possible that it could going beyond that. Given the massive lead, it was unnecessary.

 

That's a medical opinion that you're not competent to give. If you have a definitve authority that you can cite as a source, you should do so. Given these circumatances, offering an opinion in such authoritative terms is the height of arrogance.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Pitching is an unnatural motion. No harm was going to come to Carlos by stopping at 89 pitches, but it's possible that it could going beyond that. Given the massive lead, it was unnecessary.

 

That's a medical opinion that you're not competent to give. If you have a definitve authority that you can cite as a source, you should do so. Given these circumatances, offering an opinion in such authoritative terms is the height of arrogance.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think the claim that stopping 10-15 pitches short of his average doesn't hurt is that outrageous a claim.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Pitching is an unnatural motion. No harm was going to come to Carlos by stopping at 89 pitches, but it's possible that it could going beyond that. Given the massive lead, it was unnecessary.

 

That's a medical opinion that you're not competent to give. If you have a definitve authority that you can cite as a source, you should do so. Given these circumatances, offering an opinion in such authoritative terms is the height of arrogance.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think the claim that stopping 10-15 pitches short of his average doesn't hurt is that outrageous a claim.

 

I wasn't concerned as to the validity or outrageousness of the claim, but rather, I was addressing the competency, or qualification, of the claimant to present such an opinion in such an authoritative manner. While I recognize that are very knowledgeable about baseball and the CUBS in particular, and I do, generally, respect your opinions, you are, in my opinion, over your head on this one.

[treebird]

Pitching is an unnatural motion. No harm was going to come to Carlos by stopping at 89 pitches, but it's possible that it could going beyond that. Given the massive lead, it was unnecessary.

 

That's a medical opinion that you're not competent to give. If you have a definitve authority that you can cite as a source, you should do so. Given these circumatances, offering an opinion in such authoritative terms is the height of arrogance.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think the claim that stopping 10-15 pitches short of his average doesn't hurt is that outrageous a claim.

 

I wasn't concerned as to the validity or outrageousness of the claim, but rather, I was addressing the competency, or qualification, of the claimant to present such an opinion in such an authoritative manner. While I recognize that are very knowledgeable about baseball and the CUBS in particular, and I do, generally, respect your opinions, you are, in my opinion, over your head on this one.

 

So you're arguing that it's reasonable that harm was going to come to Carlos because he didn't throw enough pitches? I don't follow.

 

Any time we can get Carlos out of there under a hundred pitches, we'd be stupid not to. Unfortunately, we're stupid.

[Fred Hornkohl]

So you're arguing that it's reasonable that harm was going to come to Carlos because he didn't throw enough pitches? I don't follow.

 

Not at all. I'm arguing that A) when you have a pitcher who averages 106 pitches per start, the risk involved in extending him from 89 pitches to 108 is negligible. and B) that phrasing the opposing argument as an authoritative declarative statement (i.e. "No harm was going to come.....by stopping at 89 pitches") is unreasonable, given the lack of a citation of a source which can be generally accepted as a definitive authority.

 

Any time we can get Carlos out of there under a hundred pitches, we'd be stupid not to. Unfortunately, we're stupid.

 

Can you provide such a definitive source for your implied assertion of 100 pitches being the "magic number" for pitcher abuse in the specific case of Carlos Zambrano ??

[treebird]

So you're arguing that it's reasonable that harm was going to come to Carlos because he didn't throw enough pitches? I don't follow.

 

Not at all. I'm arguing that A) when you have a pitcher who averages 106 pitches per start, the risk involved in extending him from 89 pitches to 108 is negligible. and B) that phrasing the opposing argument as an authoritative declarative statement (i.e. "No harm was going to come.....by stopping at 89 pitches") is unreasonable, given the lack of a citation of a source which can be generally accepted as a definitive authority.

 

Any time we can get Carlos out of there under a hundred pitches, we'd be stupid not to. Unfortunately, we're stupid.

 

Can you provide such a definitive source for your implied assertion of 100 pitches being the "magic number" for pitcher abuse in the specific case of Carlos Zambrano ??

 

There is no magic number, but I think it's safe to say that less is better than more.

 

The fact that Z averages 106 pitches a start is meaningless as well. What if he averaged 140? Does that mean it'd be a good idea to leave him out there that long every time?

 

Very little can be gained by leaving Carlos Zambrano out on the mound beyond 90-100 pitches, but a whole heck of a lot can be lost. If we agree that we aren't sure what the magic danger number is, does it really make sense to decide to find out by just leaving him out there until he hits it?

[Fred Hornkohl]

There is no magic number, but I think it's safe to say that less is better than more.

 

I general, I would agree that less is better, but this is not a discussion of generalities, but rather, a discussion about a particular set of circumstances.

 

The fact that Z averages 106 pitches a start is meaningless as well. What if he averaged 140? Does that mean it'd be a good idea to leave him out there that long every time?

 

Zambrano's usual or average work load is certainly not meaningless, but your "what if" scenarios certainly are.

 

Very little can be gained by leaving Carlos Zambrano out on the mound beyond 90-100 pitches, but a whole heck of a lot can be lost.

 

That's just a restatement of the same unfounded assertion you made above and I asked if you could cite a source. Can you ?

 

If we agree that we aren't sure what the magic danger number is, does it really make sense to decide to find out by just leaving him out there until he hits it?

 

Nowhere in this entire thread did I state, imply, or infer that Zambrano should keep pitching until he reaches his breaking point. Where did that come from ??

[treebird]

There is no magic number, but I think it's safe to say that less is better than more.

 

I general, I would agree that less is better, but this is not a discussion of generalities, but rather, a discussion about a particular set of circumstances.

 

The particular set of circumstances is deciding whether we should let Carlos stop at 89 or throw an indeterminant number of pitches more. There is nothing to be gained by leaving Carlos out there for more.

 

The fact that Z averages 106 pitches a start is meaningless as well. What if he averaged 140? Does that mean it'd be a good idea to leave him out there that long every time?

 

Zambrano's usual or average work load is certainly not meaningless, but your "what if" scenarios certainly are.

 

Flippant and dismissive. We have no evidence whatsoever that suggests his average pitch count is correct or incorrect (correct meaning a proper amount for him to be throwing without risking injury). I'll ask again -- if Carlos threw 140 pitches a start, would you think that was a good number to throw every time no matter what the game situation was? You ask why 100 is a special number, I ask why anything is a special number then. We have very little in the way of absolute truths when it comes to pitcher abuse. That's why it simply doesn't make sense to mess around and find out later.

 

Very little can be gained by leaving Carlos Zambrano out on the mound beyond 90-100 pitches, but a whole heck of a lot can be lost.

 

That's just a restatement of the same unfounded assertion you made above and I asked if you could cite a source. Can you ?

 

A source for what? A source that says Carlos is okay now, but might get hurt if he throws 20 more pitches? Or a source that says today's game wasn't important enough to be taking stupid risks in?

 

If we agree that we aren't sure what the magic danger number is, does it really make sense to decide to find out by just leaving him out there until he hits it?

 

Nowhere in this entire thread did I state, imply, or infer that Zambrano should keep pitching until he reaches his breaking point. Where did that come from ??

 

I said we don't know what the danger number is. The only way we will find it is if we erroneously overuse him on a regular basis. Encouraging him to pitch needlessly seems to be a good way of doing that. I wasn't saying that you wanted to find the breaking point so much as that you were working towards doing so, albeit unintentionally.

 

Carlos is 8th in the major leagues in most pitches per start. He's second only to Livan Hernandez in pitcher abuse points (haha, prior's third despite missing several starts). This is yet another reason not to mess with him like this. He's had a tough year, and it's not over yet. The simple fact is this: Carlos Zambrano has been used a lot this year, in comparison with other major league pitchers. His average number of pitches this year has been high, in comparison with other major league pitchers. He has been used considerably more than almost all other major league pitchers.

 

Given the opportunity to give him a bit of a rest today, why not take it?

[treebird]

btw i have to go to bed now so if you reply and i dont reply, thats probably the reason

 

also i hopefully didnt come off like a jerk in any of that

 

if i did im sorry and such

 

night fred

[CubbieGirl22]

This is my first time so please be nice!!! :lol:

 

Congrats on your first game thread. May you have many other happy ones in the future. (Please! Not just for your sake)

 

I wouldn't have done this, but my first was the St Louis one that snapped the 8-game loss streak, so I was WAY nervous.

 

:lol: Thanks I'm just happy they won yesterday!