Biggio and Bagwell HOF chances

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I say no - both played in an era with hyperproduction offensively. I don't think either are quite good enough, but they probably will, cuz the voters are dumbasses. If they get in Tony Perez, Andre Dawson and host of others should get in.

 

Both these guys blow Dawson away, come on.

 

They should both get in easily. If they don't the Hall will of screwed up again, but who really cares at this point?

 

They blow Dawson away in stats, but not as impact players. But the reason they 'blow' Dawson away in stats is cuz, as I said, they played in a time in offensive inflation. If Dawson played in the '90s like Bagwell did he'd have 500 homers easy.

 

There's no way Biggio or Bagwell "blow" Dawson away - that's ludicrous, and can only be said by someone who never saw Dawson play for an extended period of time. I think a person who would say that truly shows their age.

 

But so many writers who vote just look at the stats unfortunately - they clearly do not excel at critical thinking. You'd think considering that Dawson was the first guy in decades to hit 49 home runs in the NL, and then there's, what, 15+ instances of players topping 50 home runs in the last 10+ years would make people scratch their heads about the possibility that hitting is easier today than it was 20 years ago.

 

Tony got in?! Players Assoc. huh? Good for Tony! Tony=baller.

 

Dawson also played in a great hitters park with Wrigley in the late 80s/early 90s, while Biggio/Bagwell played in an awful hitters park for half their careers at the Astrodome.

 

Career OPS+

 

Dawson: 119 (High 157)

Bagwell: 150 (High 213)

Biggio: 116 (High 141)

[Geech]

Career OPS+

 

Dawson: 119 (High 157)

Bagwell: 150 (High 213)

Biggio: 116 (High 141)

 

What is OPS+ exactly?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Career OPS+

 

Dawson: 119 (High 157)

Bagwell: 150 (High 213)

Biggio: 116 (High 141)

 

What is OPS+ exactly?

 

OPS measured against the league average, and adjusted for ballpark factors. An OPS+ over 100 is better than average, less than 100 is below average.

[Geech]

So this more or less indicates that Bagwell was a better offensive player for the time he played in than Dawson?

 

Gotcha, thanks.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

So this more or less indicates that Bagwell was a better offensive player for the time he played in than Dawson?

 

Gotcha, thanks.

 

Yep, almost Biggio too.

[wondernorm]

So this more or less indicates that Bagwell was a better offensive player for the time he played in than Dawson?

 

Gotcha, thanks.

 

Yep, almost Biggio too.

 

And considering Dawson played mostly corner OF and Biggio played mostly 2B, that doesn't say alot for Dawson

[GaryWoods]

So this more or less indicates that Bagwell was a better offensive player for the time he played in than Dawson?

 

Gotcha, thanks.

 

Yep, almost Biggio too.

 

And considering Dawson played mostly corner OF and Biggio played mostly 2B, that doesn't say alot for Dawson

 

Dawson played more games in CF than any other position.

[Derwood]

I'll give you two players' career numbers, you decide:

 

Player A:

 

.285/.344/.452, 2386 Hits, 403 2Bs, 76 3Bs, 282 HR, 1061 RBI, 1318 Runs, 344 SB's

 

 

Player B:

 

.286/.372/.435, 2708 Hits, 585 2Bs, 52 3Bs, 242 HR, 1024 RBI, 1643 Runs, 403 SB's

 

 

In case you haven't guessed, Player A is Ryne Sandberg (recent inductee) and Player B is Biggio. I don't know how Biggio doesn't make it (and he's not done yet...could end up with over 600 career doubles and more career RBI). If he retired today, his average, OBP, Hits, 2B's, Runs and SB's are higher than Ryno. Plus he was an All-Star at multiple positions.

 

 

Oh, and food for thought:

 

Player C:

 

.289/.353/.506, 1985 Hits, 454 2Bs, 42 3Bs, 316 HR, 1261 RBI, 1086 Runs

 

 

That's Jeff Kent kids.

[Derwood]

Wow, that's it? End of discussion? With Biggio breaking the record for hit-by-pitch tonight (I know, a worthless stat) I still want to hear feedback on this. I know it's a tough pill to swallow when it comes to comparing Biggio to our beloved Ryno, but he can't be discounted just because he's an Astro.

[GaryWoods]

I think both guys are deserving of enshrinement based on modern HOF standards. However, they were/will be enshrined for totally different reasons, so the "Sandberg's in so Biggio should go in" argument really doesn't fly.

 

Sandberg made it in because he was generally recognized as the best second baseman of his generation, and because he accomplished things offensively and defensively over the course of his career that hadn't been done by a second baseman before.

 

If/when Biggio makes it, it will be because of his versatility, longevity (with one team, at that), consistancy, and overall numbers (primarily 3000 hits, assuming he makes it).

[CubinNY]

I know it is done a lot by sportswriters, pundits, and ESPN analysts, but I don't like comparing people form different eras. It is not fair to one or the other person. I think a more valid compairson is between two people from the same era, like Santo and Brooks Robinson for example. If Brooks is in Santo should be too.

[Derwood]

I know it is done a lot by sportswriters, pundits, and ESPN analysts, but I don't like comparing people form different eras. It is not fair to one or the other person. I think a more valid compairson is between two people from the same era, like Santo and Brooks Robinson for example. If Brooks is in Santo should be too.

 

Well, since no one from Biggio's era is in the HOF right now, that's hard to do.

 

If we define Biggio's era as the 90's, then he and Kent are the two best 2B of the era. I think if you elect someone to the hall of fame for being the best in their position in their era, then Biggio has to get in.

[GaryWoods]

If we define Biggio's era as the 90's, then he and Kent are the two best 2B of the era.

 

If you don't count Roberto Alomar, that is.

[Derwood]

If we define Biggio's era as the 90's, then he and Kent are the two best 2B of the era.

 

If you don't count Roberto Alomar, that is.

 

Alomar was the best defensively for sure, but do his production numbers add up? Plus he was controversial, spit on an umpire, and really faded badly at the end of his career.

[goonys evil twin]

If we define Biggio's era as the 90's, then he and Kent are the two best 2B of the era.

 

If you don't count Roberto Alomar, that is.

 

Alomar was the best defensively for sure, but do his production numbers add up? Plus he was controversial, spit on an umpire, and really faded badly at the end of his career.

 

Alomar's 90's offense certainly add up in comparison to Biggio during that time. They each had 4 seasons with an OBP over .400 and they each had two more over .380. Roberto had a SLG over .500 3 times, Biggio had 2. Biggio had 4 silver sluggers, Robby had 3. Biggio led his league in runs twice, Alomar once. They are all right there.

[Derwood]

If we define Biggio's era as the 90's, then he and Kent are the two best 2B of the era.

 

If you don't count Roberto Alomar, that is.

 

Alomar was the best defensively for sure, but do his production numbers add up? Plus he was controversial, spit on an umpire, and really faded badly at the end of his career.

 

Alomar's 90's offense certainly add up in comparison to Biggio during that time. They each had 4 seasons with an OBP over .400 and they each had two more over .380. Roberto had a SLG over .500 3 times, Biggio had 2. Biggio had 4 silver sluggers, Robby had 3. Biggio led his league in runs twice, Alomar once. They are all right there.

 

But if you had to pick 1 out of the 3 (Kent, Biggio, Alomar), who would you pick? I'd still pick Biggio.

[GaryWoods]

If we're really talking about the best player, I'd give Alomar the nod. Two players couldn't be any more similar offensively than Biggio and Alomar, but Alomar's defense puts him firmly ahead.

 

Not that I'd want him on my team, as I really don't like rooting for players that I dislike. But on the basis of the pure talent at the position over the course of his career, I can't help but give him his props.

 

And Kent really doesn't belong in the discussion with those two. He's a better slugger than either of them, but that's all.