Cubs Fire Renteria, Hire Maddon

[Guest]

hopefully he brings dave martinez with him

[Geech]

Why should I be excited about the possibility of Maddon? What does he do better than Renteria?

 

Genuinely asking.

[gscool89]

Why should I be excited about the possibility of Maddon? What does he do better than Renteria?

 

Genuinely asking.

Pretty much everything. He's the best manager in baseball.

[Geech]

Why should I be excited about the possibility of Maddon? What does he do better than Renteria?

 

Genuinely asking.

Pretty much everything. He's the best manager in baseball.

 

By what metric? How many wins will he add to the team?

[Derwood]

I see his value in being a guy who had success with a homegrown team. He nurtured the careers of Longoria, Crawford, Upton etc. and won 90+ games in 5 of 6 seasons from 2008-13.

[Geech]

Yeah, but Rick Renteria speaks spanish. Sorry to Kyle the thread up, but I just don't feel excited about this possibility at all, and I'm not sure why other people are.

[Derwood]

Yeah, but Rick Renteria speaks spanish. Sorry to Kyle the thread up, but I just don't feel excited about this possibility at all, and I'm not sure why other people are.

 

What has Rick Renteria done? Line up their careers and tell me why you aren't excited

[ctcf]

Yeah, but Rick Renteria speaks spanish. Sorry to Kyle the thread up, but I just don't feel excited about this possibility at all, and I'm not sure why other people are.

 

Good thing the Rays didn't have any Spanish speaking players in the last 9 years.

Edited October 25, 2014 by ctcf

[Geech]

What has Rick Renteria done? Line up their careers and tell me why you aren't excited

 

Honestly, I don't think managers make that much difference. You could line up Renteria's career with Dusty Baker's and conclude that Baker must be a better manager, but I don't think that's a meaningful comparison.

[Sammy Sofa]

I agree that managers usually don't do a whole heck of a lot to make a team win more and usually the best you can hope for is that they don't [expletive] things up. Personally, I think the average manager has more ability to lose you a game than actually winning it, but Maddon is basically the one guy I think otherwise about. There's just too much praise for him and the job he does from the right quarters for it to simply be smoke.

 

It's weird how much the Spanish thing is tracking as a reason to not get him, too. I heard from 3 different people people today, my dad included, wary about hiring Maddon because he doesn't speak Spanish himself. One, I assume the guy speaks/understands some Spanish just by being in pro baseball, period. Two, the Cubs having Latin American players is hardly unique, and it's not like he's coming from a team that's had no Spanish-speaking players during his time there. It's a non-issue, especially when you're talking about a chance to snag a manager this good.

[Sammy Sofa]

You could line up Renteria's career with Dusty Baker's and conclude that Baker must be a better manager, but I don't think that's a meaningful comparison.

 

Well, sure, since this was Renteria's first year as a manager and Dusty has, what, 19, 20 years under his belt? Nobody is going to make that comparison because it doesn't make any sense.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Sammy Sofa

[Geech]

You could line up Renteria's career with Dusty Baker's and conclude that Baker must be a better manager, but I don't think that's a meaningful comparison.

 

Well, sure, since this was Renteria's first year as a manager and Dusty has, what, 19, 20 years under his belt? Nobody is going to make that comparison because it doesn't make any sense.

 

Why does the comparison makes sense against Maddon, then? That's what I was responding to.

[ctcf]

I agree that managers usually don't do a whole heck of a lot to make a team win more and usually the best you can hope for is that they don't [expletive] things up. Personally, I think the average manager has more ability to lose you a game than actually winning it, but Maddon is basically the one guy I think otherwise about. There's just too much praise for him and the job he does from the right quarters for it to simply be smoke.

 

It's weird how much the Spanish thing is tracking as a reason to not get him, too. I heard from 3 different people people today, my dad included, wary about hiring Maddon because he doesn't speak Spanish himself. One, I assume the guy speaks/understands some Spanish just by being in pro baseball, period. Two, the Cubs having Latin American players is hardly unique, and it's not like he's coming from a team that's had no Spanish-speaking players during his time there. It's a non-issue, especially when you're talking about a chance to snag a manager this good.

 

Sounds like he sure tries:

 

Maddon enjoys relating to people and seems to particularly enjoy communicating with his Latino players by speaking Spanish with them the best he can. He is continually trying to better learn the language, which Rodney said is appreciated by the team's Latin players.

 

"It's hard for him to speak a different language," Rodney said. "You can see in his face he tries every time he comes to talk to you, he tries to say something in Espanol. And then he speaks in English."

 

Rodney smiled when asked if Maddon's Spanish is improving.

 

"Yes, it is better," Rodney said. "Getting very good. He speaks it very good."

 

http://m.rays.mlb.com/news/article/61927628/

[gscool89]

Joe Maddon is a guy who has proven he can get you over the top and get the most out of your players. Rick Renteria might be that guy but he hasn't proven that yet. You get the guy that's proven it.

[Geech]

I agree that managers usually don't do a whole heck of a lot to make a team win more and usually the best you can hope for is that they don't [expletive] things up. Personally, I think the average manager has more ability to lose you a game than actually winning it, but Maddon is basically the one guy I think otherwise about. There's just too much praise for him and the job he does from the right quarters for it to simply be smoke.

 

It's weird how much the Spanish thing is tracking as a reason to not get him, too. I heard from 3 different people people today, my dad included, wary about hiring Maddon because he doesn't speak Spanish himself. One, I assume the guy speaks/understands some Spanish just by being in pro baseball, period. Two, the Cubs having Latin American players is hardly unique, and it's not like he's coming from a team that's had no Spanish-speaking players during his time there. It's a non-issue, especially when you're talking about a chance to snag a manager this good.

 

You first sentence is pretty much my point of view, and I'm just wondering why I should change that for Maddon. I don't actually care about the spanish thing, except that it's a tangible qualification for Renteria, which is one more than I'm aware Maddon possesses.

[Sammy Sofa]

You could line up Renteria's career with Dusty Baker's and conclude that Baker must be a better manager, but I don't think that's a meaningful comparison.

 

Well, sure, since this was Renteria's first year as a manager and Dusty has, what, 19, 20 years under his belt? Nobody is going to make that comparison because it doesn't make any sense.

 

Why does the comparison makes sense against Maddon, then? That's what I was responding to.

 

Who is directly comparing Renteria and Maddon? Renteria might turn out to be a fine manager, but he's largely unproven and there's really no reason that you need to stick with him after only one year when the guy who is basically considered by everyone to be the best manager in the game by a decent margin becomes available.

[Geech]

Who is directly comparing Renteria and Maddon?.

 

Derwood did. It was the line you deleted of the post you were responding to.

 

Renteria might turn out to be a fine manager, but he's largely unproven and there's really no reason that you need to stick with him after only one year when the guy who is basically considered by everyone to be the best manager in the game by a decent margin becomes available

 

Why is he considered the best? One of the major themes of Moneyball was the idea that the things "everyone knows" to be true aren't always actually true. I'm just wondering how we can conclude that Maddon is worth getting excited about.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Geech

[Sammy Sofa]

You first sentence is pretty much my point of view, and I'm just wondering why I should change that for Maddon. I don't actually care about the spanish thing, except that it's a tangible qualification for Renteria, which is one more than I'm aware Maddon possesses.

 

Maddon (and the staff he put together) have been given a ton of credit for the success of the Rays in recent years, well beyond the usual platitudes of "oh, he's a manager that gets guys to play hard, blah-blah-blah." He's specifically admired for his ability to shape teams made up significantly of homegrown players. He's widely credited for his proactive embracing of modern baseball analysis.

[Sammy Sofa]

Who is directly comparing Renteria and Maddon?.

 

Derwood did. It was the line you deleted of the post you were responding to.

 

Nobody listens to Derwood; it was a stupid point from the get-go.

 

Renteria might turn out to be a fine manager, but he's largely unproven and there's really no reason that you need to stick with him after only one year when the guy who is basically considered by everyone to be the best manager in the game by a decent margin becomes available

 

Why is he considered the best? One of the major themes of Moneyball was the idea that the things "everyone knows" to be true aren't always actually true. I'm just wondering how we can conclude that Maddon is worth getting excited about.

 

Maddon (and the staff he put together) have been given a ton of credit for the success of the Rays in recent years, well beyond the usual platitudes of "oh, he's a manager that gets guys to play hard, blah-blah-blah." He's specifically admired for his ability to shape teams made up significantly of homegrown players. He's widely credited for his proactive embracing of modern baseball analysis.

 

He's managed very young teams in a very tough division and has done a stellar job at it. All of the right people salute how exceptionally good he is at his job, largely due to how different he is from most other managers in how he approaches the game.

[gscool89]

Why is he considered the best? One of the major themes of Moneyball was the idea that the things "everyone knows" to be true aren't always actually true. I'm just wondering how we can conclude that Maddon is worth getting excited about.

Do you remember the Rays of old before he and the talent got there? He changed the culture there rather quickly. Even this year after they traded Price they performed well enough to at least give themselves a chance at a playoff spot. Maddon is a smart guy that gets the most out of his talent and has a track-record of developing players.

[Guest]

I think it's fair to question why Maddon would be great, but the devil's advocacy is bordering on Kyleing this last page or so.

 

For my answer, from both the results he gets, decisions he makes, and quotes he gives, it's pretty clear that he's a strong manager. He won many games in difficult divisions. Young players have been broken in and thrived under his watch. He approaches in-game strategy in a very analytic way, just reading a couple of the articles in this thread will show some good examples(hitting the pitcher 8th, eloquent words about sacrifice bunts, etc). By all accounts and as much as we can tell as outsiders, he's very good at managing a clubhouse. Basically, if you set out to describe everything I'd want a manager to do, he's either done it, is trying to do it in a thoughtful/objective fashion, or both.

 

Maybe a better way of saying it concisely: With Sveum and Renteria, they would make some decisions that I didn't agree with or understand, and the worry with that isn't that they were wrong, but that the process leading to that decision was bad. With Maddon, there will still be decisions of that nature(there will with any manager), but personally I'll be far more at ease about the process leading to that decision.

[Soonernation]

Would bring Maddon on as Manager make it easier to sign Price after 2015? Just wondering

[Geech]

I think it's fair to question why Maddon would be great, but the devil's advocacy is bordering on Kyleing this last page or so.

 

For my answer, from both the results he gets, decisions he makes, and quotes he gives, it's pretty clear that he's a strong manager. He won many games in difficult divisions. Young players have been broken in and thrived under his watch. He approaches in-game strategy in a very analytic way, just reading a couple of the articles in this thread will show some good examples(hitting the pitcher 8th, eloquent words about sacrifice bunts, etc). By all accounts and as much as we can tell as outsiders, he's very good at managing a clubhouse. Basically, if you set out to describe everything I'd want a manager to do, he's either done it, is trying to do it in a thoughtful/objective fashion, or both.

 

Maybe a better way of saying it concisely: With Sveum and Renteria, they would make some decisions that I didn't agree with or understand, and the worry with that isn't that they were wrong, but that the process leading to that decision was bad. With Maddon, there will still be decisions of that nature(there will with any manager), but personally I'll be far more at ease about the process leading to that decision.

 

It's not devil's advocacy, by the way, I was genuinely curious to see the answers.

[Deeg]

I don't see any basis on which to even compare Maddon and Renteria. By any standard on which you'd try and judge a manager, Maddon is an unvarnished success. He's a proven quantity still young enough to be a foundational piece. He's established his skill at developing young players and actually winning in the process. Given the type of organization it seems the Cubs want to be, it's hard to imagine anyone being a better fit.

 

Renteria should be irrelevant in these discussions. It's harsh, but that's the way it is. You'd certainly do everything in your power not to humiliate him unnecessarily and maybe find a place for him in the organization (not on the coaching staff) if he wants it, but if Maddon is an option Renteria just doesn't matter.

[gscool89]

Would bring Maddon on as Manager make it easier to sign Price after 2015? Just wondering

Depends on their relationship when David left which I'm sure is fine.