"spot" starters

[Sammy Sofa]

Most people would also assume that all of the in-house and retread options would be as horrific as it turned out. There's bad and then there's 2011 Cubs #4-5 starting pitcher bad.

 

And they were bad because the Cubs didn't go into the season with a viable 6th starter.

 

They still would have been horrific if they had Gorzelanny.

[champaignchris]

Even if you take out the replacement starters' 6.62 ERA in 29 starts, the quintet of Cashner, Garza, Zambrano, Dempster, and Wells have a combined ERA of 4.79, which would still be the worst starters' ERA in the league.

 

While the replacement starters throwing batting practice in a quarter of the starts this season is certainly a major factor in the Cubs doing so poorly, it is only exacerbated by the fact that Dempster and Wells are both performing well below the level anyone would have reasonably expected, and Garza and Zambrano aren't having good enough years to make up for the underperformance of the others.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

They'd be slightly less horrific.

[Sammy Sofa]

The Cubs ended up nearly 20 games under .500 and people get punchy.

 

Right, but if Gorz was not an essential part of the team at the time of the trade, why is he all of a sudden now?

 

Because the team is so bad and people start looking for more things to blame. Gorzelanny goes from being Gorzelanny to the lost salvation given away for nothing.

 

Not at all. Gorzelanny was a nice player for the Cubs and they gave him away for nothing. It didn't make much sense at all at the time and it came back to bite them when they decided to go into the season with no 6th starter and needed two.

 

It's also BS that people keep offering the injury excuse as to why the Cubs suck when the Cubs put themselves in the situation they are in.

 

How did it "bite" them? Oooh, the Cubs MIGHT be 12 or 13 games under .500 instead of 17. Lordy, Lordy, be still my beating heart.

 

And I don't know why you think reality is "BS." The Cubs suck for a number of reasons, and injuries to the starting rotation have played a big part. Still having Gorzelanny would have done little to alleviate that.

[dew1679666265]

Not at all. Gorzelanny was a nice player for the Cubs and they gave him away for nothing. It didn't make much sense at all at the time and it came back to bite them when they decided to go into the season with no 6th starter and needed two.

 

It's also BS that people keep offering the injury excuse as to why the Cubs suck when the Cubs put themselves in the situation they are in.

 

The Cubs got a former first round pick who had OPS'd .810 or better 3 out of 4 years in pro ball and who was only 22 and a tall, projectible 21 year old lefty who many on here liked quite a bit. That's hardly nothing for a guy who had a career 4.69 ERA and a 1.463 WHIP.

 

They've lost some of their intrigue, as CCP pointed out, but at the time they were very intriguing prospects.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Not at all. Gorzelanny was a nice player for the Cubs and they gave him away for nothing. It didn't make much sense at all at the time and it came back to bite them when they decided to go into the season with no 6th starter and needed two.

 

It's also BS that people keep offering the injury excuse as to why the Cubs suck when the Cubs put themselves in the situation they are in.

 

The Cubs got a former first round pick who had OPS'd .810 or better 3 out of 4 years in pro ball and who was only 22 and a tall, projectible 21 year old lefty who many on here liked quite a bit. That's hardly nothing for a guy who had a career 4.69 ERA and a 1.463 WHIP.

 

They've lost some of their intrigue, as CCP pointed out, but at the time they were very intriguing prospects.

 

Speaking of which, whats the deal with AJ Morris? They must have seen something in him sine they took a guy they knew would be out all year. Will he be ready to go next year? And Burgess and Hicks are still young enough that they're still intriguing.

[sneakypower]

i'm not really sure what you're arguing, mojo

 

the OP is slamming Hendry for not having a viable backup plan, and you're saying having a backup plan was pointless because the team would be shitty regardless because Hendry compiled such an awful team? seems weird to belabor such a pitiful distinction

[DiamondMind]

Gorz was/is pretty decent, but besides that, hard to fault Hendry for anything when you take the injuries into account. This is also a good a time as any to say again that I [expletive] hate randy [expletive] wells that [expletive] [expletive] [expletive] [expletive].

[Sammy Sofa]

i'm not really sure what you're arguing, mojo

 

the OP is slamming Hendry for not having a viable backup plan, and you're saying having a backup plan was pointless because the team would be [expletive] regardless because Hendry compiled such an awful team? seems weird to belabor such a pitiful distinction

 

I'm "arguing" that bemoaning Gorzelanny not being on the team is largely irrelevant when it comes to the situation they're in this season. Yes, having Gorzelanny as a 6th starter would have been a viable backup plan when one is planning for the season on paper. No, having Gorzelanny as the 6th pitcher this season wouldn't have made much of an actual difference this season. If someone can convincingly argue that holding on to Gorzelanny would have resulted in the Cubs not being at least 12 games under .500 at this point, I'm all ears.

 

And that leads to the crux of my point, is that it wasn't like it was Gorzelanny or bust when it came to dealing with 2 starters going down so early. Most of the time a team will stumble across an acceptable replacement via retread FA signings or internal options, and the Cubs certainly paraded out a bunch of pitchers where it wasn't unreasonable to assume that at least one could put together a stretch of starts that were tolerable (emphasis on "tolerable," before the usual suspects start flipping out and frothing at the mouth thinking that I'm expecting a bunch of good starts out of garbage) instead of the absolutely catastrophic slew of starts that the Cubs got.

[sneakypower]

I'm "arguing" that bemoaning Gorzelanny not being on the team is largely irrelevant when it comes to the situation they're in this season. Yes, having Gorzelanny as a 6th starter would have been a viable backup plan when one is planning for the season on paper. No, having Gorzelanny as the 6th pitcher this season wouldn't have made much of an actual difference this season. If someone can convincingly argue that holding on to Gorzelanny would have resulted in the Cubs not being at least 12 games under .500 at this point, I'm all ears.

 

And that leads to the crux of my point, is that it wasn't like it was Gorzelanny or bust when it came to dealing with 2 starters going down so early. Most of the time a team will stumble across an acceptable replacement via retread FA signings or internal options, and the Cubs certainly paraded out a bunch of pitchers where it wasn't unreasonable to assume that at least one could put together a stretch of starts that were tolerable (emphasis on "tolerable," before the usual suspects start flipping out and frothing at the mouth thinking that I'm expecting a bunch of good starts out of garbage) instead of the absolutely catastrophic slew of starts that the Cubs got.

to me, this is a meaningless strawman

 

looking at it now, no single move would have saved this season, but a GM should be taken to task (or complained about on a message board, whatever) for actions that lessen the talent of the team. needlessly casting aside Gorzellany made the team more ill-equipped to withstand injuries and consequently worse, and that's where these valid complaints stem from

 

that he blundered so frequently when building the rest of the team essentially renders it a moot point, yeah, but it doesn't mean it bears no attention

[Sammy Sofa]

No, it's not a strawman; I honestly can't get worked up over the idea of moving someone like Gorzelanny. Again, most teams are able to ride out a major pitching injury going the route the Cubs took this season.

 

I mean, trading Marmol before this season ideally would have lessened the talent of the team going into this season, but I would have been all about that. Trading DeRosa before 2009 technically lessened the talent of the team before the season but it was a good move. If the Cubs wanted to go the route of selling relatively high on a mediocre pitcher and save a bit of money in case they needed to spend during the season, meh, really doesn't bother me. A LOT of things had to go wrong for Tom [expletive] Gorzelanny to start suddenly looking so good.

[dew1679666265]

to me, this is a meaningless strawman

 

looking at it now, no single move would have saved this season, but a GM should be taken to task (or complained about on a message board, whatever) for actions that lessen the talent of the team. needlessly casting aside Gorzellany made the team more ill-equipped to withstand injuries and consequently worse, and that's where these valid complaints stem from

 

that he blundered so frequently when building the rest of the team essentially renders it a moot point, yeah, but it doesn't mean it bears no attention

 

At the time of the Gorzelanny trade, the Cubs had a veteran pitcher who was likely to be as good as Gorz (Silva), their #2 prospect on the verge of being ready (McNutt) and another top 10 prospect who had struggled closing out last year but was still a very good talent (Jay Jackson). If you're going to complain about their depth issues, you should complain about cutting Silva (though his hissy fit made that much more difficult) than trading Gorz for intriguing prospects - a return many people on here thought was more than his value in the first place.

 

And that brings me to the second point - the Cubs didn't needlessly get rid of Gorz. They received an offer of three intriguing young players - one a former 1st round pick - for a guy with a career ERA in the 4.50+ range. Given the depth they had at the time, it would have been rather dumb to pass that up. Gorz wasn't an integral part of the team, so why not get a power hitter with upside (something we didn't have much of at the time), an intriguing arm and a potential future cheap reliever for him?

 

Arguing that trading Gorz was a bad decision is similar to arguing that trading DeRosa for Archer/Gaub/Stevens was a bad idea. The DeRosa trade was fine, it was signing Miles that was the mistake. Likewise, trading Gorz was fine, but cutting Silva and then having 3 starting pitchers (Wells/Cashner/McNutt) get and stay hurt and another young pitcher falling apart was the problem.

[Guest]

Not at all. Gorzelanny was a nice player for the Cubs and they gave him away for nothing. It didn't make much sense at all at the time and it came back to bite them when they decided to go into the season with no 6th starter and needed two.

 

It's also BS that people keep offering the injury excuse as to why the Cubs suck when the Cubs put themselves in the situation they are in.

 

The Cubs got a former first round pick who had OPS'd .810 or better 3 out of 4 years in pro ball and who was only 22 and a tall, projectible 21 year old lefty who many on here liked quite a bit. That's hardly nothing for a guy who had a career 4.69 ERA and a 1.463 WHIP.

 

They've lost some of their intrigue, as CCP pointed out, but at the time they were very intriguing prospects.

 

Speaking of which, whats the deal with AJ Morris? They must have seen something in him sine they took a guy they knew would be out all year. Will he be ready to go next year? And Burgess and Hicks are still young enough that they're still intriguing.

 

Shoulder surgery, should return next year. The Cubs apparently knew of the injury and still wanted him in the trade.

[Guest]

I'm "arguing" that bemoaning Gorzelanny not being on the team is largely irrelevant when it comes to the situation they're in this season. Yes, having Gorzelanny as a 6th starter would have been a viable backup plan when one is planning for the season on paper. No, having Gorzelanny as the 6th pitcher this season wouldn't have made much of an actual difference this season. If someone can convincingly argue that holding on to Gorzelanny would have resulted in the Cubs not being at least 12 games under .500 at this point, I'm all ears.

 

And that leads to the crux of my point, is that it wasn't like it was Gorzelanny or bust when it came to dealing with 2 starters going down so early. Most of the time a team will stumble across an acceptable replacement via retread FA signings or internal options, and the Cubs certainly paraded out a bunch of pitchers where it wasn't unreasonable to assume that at least one could put together a stretch of starts that were tolerable (emphasis on "tolerable," before the usual suspects start flipping out and frothing at the mouth thinking that I'm expecting a bunch of good starts out of garbage) instead of the absolutely catastrophic slew of starts that the Cubs got.

to me, this is a meaningless strawman

 

looking at it now, no single move would have saved this season, but a GM should be taken to task (or complained about on a message board, whatever) for actions that lessen the talent of the team. needlessly casting aside Gorzellany made the team more ill-equipped to withstand injuries and consequently worse, and that's where these valid complaints stem from

 

that he blundered so frequently when building the rest of the team essentially renders it a moot point, yeah, but it doesn't mean it bears no attention

 

Keeping Gorzelanny as a 7th starter on the chance that all of these conditions are met:

 

2 starters are simultaneously out for a long period

Silva goes beserk at the thought of not starting

None of the MiLB options seem feasible

 

 

doesn’t seem like a very efficient use of resources, especially given the return they were able to get for him. Gorzelanny wasn’t a long term piece, and considering the construction of the team at the time of the trade, any set of circumstances that required him to play a major role would have sank the season anyway with how low their margin for error was. And the return they got for him after 2010 is certainly greater than the likely return they would’ve gotten for him after a year of middle relief purgatory.

[sneakypower]

7th? is this accepting the premise that counting on the grotesque Silva to be a useful performer was all fine and dandy?

[Guest]

7th? is this accepting the premise that counting on the grotesque Silva to be a useful performer was all fine and dandy?

 

Not really, more of the assumption that Silva was untradeable. Make it 6th if you like, the point still remains because Gorzelanny only has marginally more value than Silva in that role anyway.

[Sammy Sofa]

Yeah, looking at him as the 6th or 7th starter is ultimately largely redundant. The point still stands that a series of events had to go very, very wrong (arguably to an unusual degree) for the idea of Gorzelanny being traded being a truly damnable decision by Hendry. Like TT said, Gorzelanny did not figure into the Cubs long-term plans, they had multiple options besides him at the time, and dealing him would net them a group of intriguing prospects and free up a couple million dollars. It ended up that having Gorzelanny would have lessened the pain of this year (though likely not by much), but personally I don't see trading him as being particularly egregious.

[KingCubsFan]

At the time of the Gorzelanny trade, the Cubs had a veteran pitcher who was likely to be as good as Gorz (Silva), their #2 prospect on the verge of being ready (McNutt) and another top 10 prospect who had struggled closing out last year but was still a very good talent (Jay Jackson).

I didn't mind the Gorzelanny trade, as the Cubs probably traded him at his peak and they were going to struggle regardless of who their #6 starter was, but I seriously hope this wasn't Hendry's idea of depth. McNutt had only been playing professional baseball for a year and was barely out of A ball, and it was pretty foreseeable that Silva would blow up if he wasn't made a starter. My guess is that this wasn't Hendry's plan though, since he also brought in Wellemeyer and Looper.

[dew1679666265]

I didn't mind the Gorzelanny trade, as the Cubs probably traded him at his peak and they were going to struggle regardless of who their #6 starter was, but I seriously hope this wasn't Hendry's idea of depth. McNutt had only been playing professional baseball for a year and was barely out of A ball, and it was pretty foreseeable that Silva would blow up if he wasn't made a starter. My guess is that this wasn't Hendry's plan though, since he also brought in Wellemeyer and Looper.

 

Silva might not have blown up over a bullpen role to start the year, especially if Hendry/Quade had sold him on the idea that Cashner almost certainly wasn't going to pitch a complete season. However - and this is where I think the mistake was made - the Cubs went with Mateo over Silva in the pen. At the time of the Gorz trade, Mateo wasn't really on the radar. He pitched well in spring training, though, and won over Quade and Hendry - thus, the Cubs tried to demote Silva and he bolted. I think they should have kept Silva as immediate depth in case it was needed and keep Mateo at AAA to start the year, since we could send down Mateo without losing him and we couldn't with Silva.

 

As for McNutt, as the 7th option after the Gorz trade, the hope, I'm sure, is that he wouldn't be needed for the first month or two of the season. By June or July, he would have had a few months of AA experience after dominating his entire (short) pro career. But then Wells and Cashner both got hurt and, before they even had the option of thinking about calling up McNutt, he got hurt. With Jay Jackson completely falling apart at the same time, that left only the Coleman/Davis/Ortiz/etc group.

 

Calling up McNutt in April or May wouldn't have been the best idea, but it's still very possible he would have been better than the guys they ended up running out there. That wasn't likely to be necessary, however, since we didn't have a particularly injury prone pitching staff (relative to any pitcher). There was no way to expect two starters to go out for an extended period of time five days into the start of the season and 4 of 5 starters missing time in the first 3 months of the year and our #2 prospect hitting the DL twice in that same time frame.

 

And just a nitpick, but McNutt entered his 3rd year of pro ball this season. He pitched in 2009 and 2010.

[questionmarkgrace]

The Cubs ended up nearly 20 games under .500 and people get punchy.

 

Right, but if Gorz was not an essential part of the team at the time of the trade, why is he all of a sudden now?

 

Because the team is so bad and people start looking for more things to blame. Gorzelanny goes from being Gorzelanny to the lost salvation given away for nothing.

 

Not at all. Gorzelanny was a nice player for the Cubs and they gave him away for nothing. It didn't make much sense at all at the time and it came back to bite them when they decided to go into the season with no 6th starter and needed two.

 

It's also BS that people keep offering the injury excuse as to why the Cubs suck when the Cubs put themselves in the situation they are in.

 

Besides Wellemeyer,Silva,Looper,and Cashner going into spring training they also had AAAA guys like THomas Diamond, Jay Jackson, ALberto Carbera, Robert Coello, and Coleman who they thought would be servicable if they needed a 4th or 5th guy. That they all flopped is more of an indictment of internal scouting and projection.

 

Hindsight is always 20/20 and Gorz was good at times last year but he did seem to be expendable and like others have said people here liked the trade value received at the time.

[Guest]

Alberto Cabrera isn't a AAAA guy. He's one of the youngest players in the PCL and he certainly should be at AA.

[questionmarkgrace]

Alberto Cabrera isn't a AAAA guy. He's one of the youngest players in the PCL and he certainly should be at AA.

 

my mistake I thought he was 25 for some reason. and yes he most certainly should be at AA. Going back to the thread about dave bush and pitching depth. It just shows how little quality pitching we have for a guy like him to be pitching over his head.

 

At any rate. My point was that we had a bunch of seemingly serviceable guys that were in AAA that looked like they could step in if need be for a start or two. No one anticipated Wells missing almost two months and Cashner missing what is looking like most of the year.