Re: Roberts: OH mini update (p.183); Happy 200!! (p.200)

[TheGrinch]

 

The problem is that diving doesn't decrease the distance to the bag, just the perception of it. Simply bending forward to position yourself for the dive will put you behind the runner who is running flat out and in stride. The instant you break out of the normal sprinting motion, you lose speed. It's 90 feet from home to first, no matter what configuration your body is in when you get there.

No. Since you are ignoring my earlier explanation entirely, and the link that followed it up, I'll post it again.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_sliding_into_a_base_make_you_reach_base_faster

Read it this time. And yes, the Mythbusters episode "busted" a "myth" that didn't actually exist in the first place. Total waste of time.

 

Sorry for continuing the baserunning discussion, but I don't buy what that website is selling. They don't seem to take into account that once you start to rotate into the dive/slide position you lose the ability to continue using your legs to propel yourself forward at the same rate. Also the part about fielders diving for balls doesn't make any sense. They don't dive to get to the ball faster, they dive to get their glove into the vicinity of the ball faster.

But that's the point. You don't need to get your whole body to the ball, just one part, so you stick out your glove. And for the half second you are in the air not running you are losing speed, sure. But because you are able to just stick out a part of your body and not have to move your center of mass/gravity all the way to where the ball will be, you can reach the ball faster. The EXACT same argument can be made for sliding into first. The only difference is the base is on the ground and you aren't wearing a glove.

[CoolHandLuke]

Sorry for continuing the baserunning discussion, but I don't buy what that website is selling. They don't seem to take into account that once you start to rotate into the dive/slide position you lose the ability to continue using your legs to propel yourself forward at the same rate. Also the part about fielders diving for balls doesn't make any sense. They don't dive to get to the ball faster, they dive to get their glove into the vicinity of the ball faster.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that the same concept as trying to get your hand/body in the vicinity of the base faster?

 

Not really. While you can touch first with your foot, you cannot catch a ball with your foot.

[TheGrinch]

 

The problem is that diving doesn't decrease the distance to the bag, just the perception of it. Simply bending forward to position yourself for the dive will put you behind the runner who is running flat out and in stride. The instant you break out of the normal sprinting motion, you lose speed. It's 90 feet from home to first, no matter what configuration your body is in when you get there.

No. Since you are ignoring my earlier explanation entirely, and the link that followed it up, I'll post it again.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_sliding_into_a_base_make_you_reach_base_faster

Read it this time. And yes, the Mythbusters episode "busted" a "myth" that didn't actually exist in the first place. Total waste of time.

 

One thing I would argue is that the umpire is not typically in a very good position to judge whether a runner sliding into 1B is safe or not. I think part of the difficulty of sliding into 1B is that your hand might not be easily visible to the umpire when it comes into contact with the base.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd imagine it might make a difference in terms of deciding whether to run or slide.

I've been told by umpires that they look at the feet and listen for the ball.

 

Anyway, there is no possible way sliding can be faster than running through a base. It defies the known laws of physics.

Which law of physics does the concept of center of mass and conservation of momentum does sliding into first being faster break?

[TheGrinch]

Sorry for continuing the baserunning discussion, but I don't buy what that website is selling. They don't seem to take into account that once you start to rotate into the dive/slide position you lose the ability to continue using your legs to propel yourself forward at the same rate. Also the part about fielders diving for balls doesn't make any sense. They don't dive to get to the ball faster, they dive to get their glove into the vicinity of the ball faster.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that the same concept as trying to get your hand/body in the vicinity of the base faster?

 

Not really. While you can touch first with your foot, you cannot catch a ball with your foot.

But by your reasoning diving for the ball at the end could not be faster than just running to it on a full sprint at all times.

[Derwood]

Sorry for continuing the baserunning discussion, but I don't buy what that website is selling. They don't seem to take into account that once you start to rotate into the dive/slide position you lose the ability to continue using your legs to propel yourself forward at the same rate. Also the part about fielders diving for balls doesn't make any sense. They don't dive to get to the ball faster, they dive to get their glove into the vicinity of the ball faster.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that the same concept as trying to get your hand/body in the vicinity of the base faster?

 

Not really. While you can touch first with your foot, you cannot catch a ball with your foot.

But by your reasoning diving for the ball at the end could not be faster than just running to it on a full sprint at all times.

 

the base is a stationary object, the ball is a moving object. this isn't rocket science

[CoolHandLuke]

Sorry for continuing the baserunning discussion, but I don't buy what that website is selling. They don't seem to take into account that once you start to rotate into the dive/slide position you lose the ability to continue using your legs to propel yourself forward at the same rate. Also the part about fielders diving for balls doesn't make any sense. They don't dive to get to the ball faster, they dive to get their glove into the vicinity of the ball faster.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that the same concept as trying to get your hand/body in the vicinity of the base faster?

 

Not really. While you can touch first with your foot, you cannot catch a ball with your foot.

But by your reasoning diving for the ball at the end could not be faster than just running to it on a full sprint at all times.

 

Running to the ball full speed will get you to the point where the ball will be faster, you just wont be in a position to catch it.

[swordsman]

Sorry for continuing the baserunning discussion, but I don't buy what that website is selling. They don't seem to take into account that once you start to rotate into the dive/slide position you lose the ability to continue using your legs to propel yourself forward at the same rate. Also the part about fielders diving for balls doesn't make any sense. They don't dive to get to the ball faster, they dive to get their glove into the vicinity of the ball faster.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that the same concept as trying to get your hand/body in the vicinity of the base faster?

 

Not really. While you can touch first with your foot, you cannot catch a ball with your foot.

But by your reasoning diving for the ball at the end could not be faster than just running to it on a full sprint at all times.

 

Isn't it true though that a diving fielder is often trying to reach a ball that is on the margin of their range (i.e. catch a ball that puts thier body in an ackward position to make the catch like a shoestring grab.) and that is why a dive makes more sense? In other words, it isn't all about speed but also about balance and position?

[DenverCubs]

Sorry for continuing the baserunning discussion, but I don't buy what that website is selling. They don't seem to take into account that once you start to rotate into the dive/slide position you lose the ability to continue using your legs to propel yourself forward at the same rate. Also the part about fielders diving for balls doesn't make any sense. They don't dive to get to the ball faster, they dive to get their glove into the vicinity of the ball faster.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that the same concept as trying to get your hand/body in the vicinity of the base faster?

 

Not really. While you can touch first with your foot, you cannot catch a ball with your foot.

But by your reasoning diving for the ball at the end could not be faster than just running to it on a full sprint at all times.

 

the base is a stationary object, the ball is a moving object. this isn't rocket science

 

What does the object moving have to do with anything? If the base was moving, then diving would be faster? Man, this isn't brain surgery.

[Derwood]

Sorry for continuing the baserunning discussion, but I don't buy what that website is selling. They don't seem to take into account that once you start to rotate into the dive/slide position you lose the ability to continue using your legs to propel yourself forward at the same rate. Also the part about fielders diving for balls doesn't make any sense. They don't dive to get to the ball faster, they dive to get their glove into the vicinity of the ball faster.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that the same concept as trying to get your hand/body in the vicinity of the base faster?

 

Not really. While you can touch first with your foot, you cannot catch a ball with your foot.

But by your reasoning diving for the ball at the end could not be faster than just running to it on a full sprint at all times.

 

the base is a stationary object, the ball is a moving object. this isn't rocket science

 

What does the object moving have to do with anything? If the base was moving, then diving would be faster? Man, this isn't brain surgery.

 

usually when a player has to dive for a ball it's because the ball is on a trajectory that is moving it away from the player.

[CubinNY]

 

The problem is that diving doesn't decrease the distance to the bag, just the perception of it. Simply bending forward to position yourself for the dive will put you behind the runner who is running flat out and in stride. The instant you break out of the normal sprinting motion, you lose speed. It's 90 feet from home to first, no matter what configuration your body is in when you get there.

No. Since you are ignoring my earlier explanation entirely, and the link that followed it up, I'll post it again.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_sliding_into_a_base_make_you_reach_base_faster

Read it this time. And yes, the Mythbusters episode "busted" a "myth" that didn't actually exist in the first place. Total waste of time.

 

One thing I would argue is that the umpire is not typically in a very good position to judge whether a runner sliding into 1B is safe or not. I think part of the difficulty of sliding into 1B is that your hand might not be easily visible to the umpire when it comes into contact with the base.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd imagine it might make a difference in terms of deciding whether to run or slide.

I've been told by umpires that they look at the feet and listen for the ball.

 

Anyway, there is no possible way sliding can be faster than running through a base. It defies the known laws of physics.

Which law of physics does the concept of center of mass and conservation of momentum does sliding into first being faster break?

F =ma

An object with a certain velocity maintains that velocity unless a force acts on it to cause an acceleration, or in this case a deceleration. Any time a person stops running they are decelerating.

 

Also probably some other ones that I forgot a long time ago about velocity and friction.

[DenverCubs]

Sorry for continuing the baserunning discussion, but I don't buy what that website is selling. They don't seem to take into account that once you start to rotate into the dive/slide position you lose the ability to continue using your legs to propel yourself forward at the same rate. Also the part about fielders diving for balls doesn't make any sense. They don't dive to get to the ball faster, they dive to get their glove into the vicinity of the ball faster.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that the same concept as trying to get your hand/body in the vicinity of the base faster?

 

Not really. While you can touch first with your foot, you cannot catch a ball with your foot.

But by your reasoning diving for the ball at the end could not be faster than just running to it on a full sprint at all times.

 

the base is a stationary object, the ball is a moving object. this isn't rocket science

 

What does the object moving have to do with anything? If the base was moving, then diving would be faster? Man, this isn't brain surgery.

 

usually when a player has to dive for a ball it's because the ball is on a trajectory that is moving it away from the player.

Again...so if the base was moving down the right field line, then you should dive?

A perfectly timed dive can get your hand to first base as fast or faster than running though the base can get your foot there (which is usually right underneath your center of gravity). If you hit the bag in the perfect stride so that your leg was totally stretched out at the exact time you reached the bag...it might be a little faster.

[TheGrinch]

Sorry for continuing the baserunning discussion, but I don't buy what that website is selling. They don't seem to take into account that once you start to rotate into the dive/slide position you lose the ability to continue using your legs to propel yourself forward at the same rate. Also the part about fielders diving for balls doesn't make any sense. They don't dive to get to the ball faster, they dive to get their glove into the vicinity of the ball faster.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't that the same concept as trying to get your hand/body in the vicinity of the base faster?

 

Not really. While you can touch first with your foot, you cannot catch a ball with your foot.

But by your reasoning diving for the ball at the end could not be faster than just running to it on a full sprint at all times.

 

Running to the ball full speed will get you to the point where the ball will be faster, you just wont be in a position to catch it.

Ok, I'm going to use a hypothetical here. Take an imaginary journey with me. There is a ball suspended in mid-air JUST above the ground. You need to touch this ball as soon as possible. You start running at it full speed. You are almost there...when you are near arm's reach, do you dive at it, or run through it and stomp on it?

 

Still not convinced? Ok, let's change the rules of an Olympic sprint. In this race, any part of your body counts, not just your torso. You are almost at the finish line. Do you just run through it...or do you just put your hand out? Let's change the rules one more time, but any part of you must touch the GROUND as you pass the finish line. If the concept of just putting your arm out allowing you to reach a point faster is beyond someone, then I don't feel like arguing the point with that person anymore.

[Derwood]

i'm curious about this "experiment". you had 10 buddies run to first and slide into first and timed them. how many times did they do each version? were they just running or were they hitting off a tee?

 

1/2 a second faster sounds awfully dubious

[DenverCubs]

 

The problem is that diving doesn't decrease the distance to the bag, just the perception of it. Simply bending forward to position yourself for the dive will put you behind the runner who is running flat out and in stride. The instant you break out of the normal sprinting motion, you lose speed. It's 90 feet from home to first, no matter what configuration your body is in when you get there.

No. Since you are ignoring my earlier explanation entirely, and the link that followed it up, I'll post it again.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_sliding_into_a_base_make_you_reach_base_faster

Read it this time. And yes, the Mythbusters episode "busted" a "myth" that didn't actually exist in the first place. Total waste of time.

 

One thing I would argue is that the umpire is not typically in a very good position to judge whether a runner sliding into 1B is safe or not. I think part of the difficulty of sliding into 1B is that your hand might not be easily visible to the umpire when it comes into contact with the base.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd imagine it might make a difference in terms of deciding whether to run or slide.

I've been told by umpires that they look at the feet and listen for the ball.

 

Anyway, there is no possible way sliding can be faster than running through a base. It defies the known laws of physics.

Which law of physics does the concept of center of mass and conservation of momentum does sliding into first being faster break?

F =ma

An object with a certain velocity maintains that velocity unless a force acts on it to cause an acceleration, or in this case a deceleration. Any time a person stops running they are decelerating.

 

Also probably some other ones that I forgot a long time ago about velocity and friction.

It's definitely a lot more complicated than F = ma.

[CubinNY]

 

The problem is that diving doesn't decrease the distance to the bag, just the perception of it. Simply bending forward to position yourself for the dive will put you behind the runner who is running flat out and in stride. The instant you break out of the normal sprinting motion, you lose speed. It's 90 feet from home to first, no matter what configuration your body is in when you get there.

No. Since you are ignoring my earlier explanation entirely, and the link that followed it up, I'll post it again.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_sliding_into_a_base_make_you_reach_base_faster

Read it this time. And yes, the Mythbusters episode "busted" a "myth" that didn't actually exist in the first place. Total waste of time.

 

One thing I would argue is that the umpire is not typically in a very good position to judge whether a runner sliding into 1B is safe or not. I think part of the difficulty of sliding into 1B is that your hand might not be easily visible to the umpire when it comes into contact with the base.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd imagine it might make a difference in terms of deciding whether to run or slide.

I've been told by umpires that they look at the feet and listen for the ball.

 

Anyway, there is no possible way sliding can be faster than running through a base. It defies the known laws of physics.

Which law of physics does the concept of center of mass and conservation of momentum does sliding into first being faster break?

F =ma

An object with a certain velocity maintains that velocity unless a force acts on it to cause an acceleration, or in this case a deceleration. Any time a person stops running they are decelerating.

 

Also probably some other ones that I forgot a long time ago about velocity and friction.

It's definitely a lot more complicated than F = ma.

No, it is definitely not. Something cannot go faster by slowing down. Not to mention the fact that a foot is a lot closer to the ground than a hand.

[TheGrinch]

F =ma

An object with a certain velocity maintains that velocity unless a force acts on it to cause an acceleration, or in this case a deceleration. Any time a person stops running they are decelerating.

 

Also probably some other ones that I forgot a long time ago about velocity and friction.

This is horrible. First off, I earlier explained that friction (at least from the ground) is not in play here. You are diving to touch the bag immediately, not to slide into it. Second...the bold part. A science teacher's head might explode if a student told him this with no explanation. No, you just explained why when you stop running you don't necessarily decelerate. F=ma. There is air-resistance...but that effects you when you are running, too. In fact, continuing to run will INCREASE the frictional forces working against you as you are still connecting with the ground. I'll conceed the point that not taking those last two steps will decrease your speed as you cross the bag. I am not arguing that and never will. But the advantage of being able to reach out and touch the bag as your center of mass is significantly behind the bag offsets that slight loss of speed.

 

If you imagine Wilt Chamberlain diving toward the bag instead of running over it, can you imagine the advantage of having your center of mass behind the bag and still being there? The only difference there is scale.

 

[bragging]Claiming that science says it's impossible with a Geophysicist probably isn't your best bet, btw. [/bragging]

Edited February 19, 2008 by TheGrinch

[Derwood]

F =ma

An object with a certain velocity maintains that velocity unless a force acts on it to cause an acceleration, or in this case a deceleration. Any time a person stops running they are decelerating.

 

Also probably some other ones that I forgot a long time ago about velocity and friction.

This is horrible. First off, I earlier explained that friction (at least from the ground) is not in play here. You are diving to touch the bag immediately, not to slide into it. Second...the bold part. A science teacher's head might explode if a student told him this with no explanation. No, you just explained why when you stop running you don't necessarily decelerate. F=ma. There is air-resistance...but that effects you when you are running, too. In fact, continuing to run will INCREASE the frictional forces working against you as you are still connecting with the ground. I'll conceed the point that not taking those last two steps will decrease your speed as you cross the bag. I am not arguing that and never will. But the advantage of being able to reach out and touch the bag as your center of mass is significantly behind the bag offsets that slight loss of speed.

 

if you slide, foot first, into the bag trying to time it so you don't actually slide on the ground, i guarantee that your foot will no longer be attached to your ankle about 0.03 seconds later

[DenverCubs]

 

The problem is that diving doesn't decrease the distance to the bag, just the perception of it. Simply bending forward to position yourself for the dive will put you behind the runner who is running flat out and in stride. The instant you break out of the normal sprinting motion, you lose speed. It's 90 feet from home to first, no matter what configuration your body is in when you get there.

No. Since you are ignoring my earlier explanation entirely, and the link that followed it up, I'll post it again.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_sliding_into_a_base_make_you_reach_base_faster

Read it this time. And yes, the Mythbusters episode "busted" a "myth" that didn't actually exist in the first place. Total waste of time.

 

One thing I would argue is that the umpire is not typically in a very good position to judge whether a runner sliding into 1B is safe or not. I think part of the difficulty of sliding into 1B is that your hand might not be easily visible to the umpire when it comes into contact with the base.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd imagine it might make a difference in terms of deciding whether to run or slide.

I've been told by umpires that they look at the feet and listen for the ball.

 

Anyway, there is no possible way sliding can be faster than running through a base. It defies the known laws of physics.

Which law of physics does the concept of center of mass and conservation of momentum does sliding into first being faster break?

F =ma

An object with a certain velocity maintains that velocity unless a force acts on it to cause an acceleration, or in this case a deceleration. Any time a person stops running they are decelerating.

 

Also probably some other ones that I forgot a long time ago about velocity and friction.

It's definitely a lot more complicated than F = ma.

No, it is definitely not. Something cannot go faster by slowing down. Not to mention the fact that a foot is a lot closer to the ground than a hand.

It's not about how fast you are going when you get to he bag, it's how can you get a single piece of your body to a point as fast as possible. Also, yes, it is a lot more complicated.

[Derwood]

also, wouldn't sticking your foot out to reach the bag by sliding but not actually sliding just = sticking your foot out for the bag? i'm confused

[DenverCubs]

F =ma

An object with a certain velocity maintains that velocity unless a force acts on it to cause an acceleration, or in this case a deceleration. Any time a person stops running they are decelerating.

 

Also probably some other ones that I forgot a long time ago about velocity and friction.

This is horrible. First off, I earlier explained that friction (at least from the ground) is not in play here. You are diving to touch the bag immediately, not to slide into it. Second...the bold part. A science teacher's head might explode if a student told him this with no explanation. No, you just explained why when you stop running you don't necessarily decelerate. F=ma. There is air-resistance...but that effects you when you are running, too. In fact, continuing to run will INCREASE the frictional forces working against you as you are still connecting with the ground. I'll conceed the point that not taking those last two steps will decrease your speed as you cross the bag. I am not arguing that and never will. But the advantage of being able to reach out and touch the bag as your center of mass is significantly behind the bag offsets that slight loss of speed.

 

if you slide, foot first, into the bag trying to time it so you don't actually slide on the ground, i guarantee that your foot will no longer be attached to your ankle about 0.03 seconds later

Great, while you test that, I'll dive in head first, since that will be faster anyways.

[TheGrinch]

also, wouldn't sticking your foot out to reach the bag by sliding but not actually sliding just = sticking your foot out for the bag? i'm confused

He's claiming that taking a long goofy lunge at the end instead of running optimally through it might be faster, and that might be true. With all this said about who would get there fastest...I still think it's stupid in most cases as chances for injury go through the roof.

[DenverCubs]

also, wouldn't sticking your foot out to reach the bag by sliding but not actually sliding just = sticking your foot out for the bag? i'm confused

Who said that? If I did, I was trying to type to fast.

[Derwood]

F =ma

An object with a certain velocity maintains that velocity unless a force acts on it to cause an acceleration, or in this case a deceleration. Any time a person stops running they are decelerating.

 

Also probably some other ones that I forgot a long time ago about velocity and friction.

This is horrible. First off, I earlier explained that friction (at least from the ground) is not in play here. You are diving to touch the bag immediately, not to slide into it. Second...the bold part. A science teacher's head might explode if a student told him this with no explanation. No, you just explained why when you stop running you don't necessarily decelerate. F=ma. There is air-resistance...but that effects you when you are running, too. In fact, continuing to run will INCREASE the frictional forces working against you as you are still connecting with the ground. I'll conceed the point that not taking those last two steps will decrease your speed as you cross the bag. I am not arguing that and never will. But the advantage of being able to reach out and touch the bag as your center of mass is significantly behind the bag offsets that slight loss of speed.

 

if you slide, foot first, into the bag trying to time it so you don't actually slide on the ground, i guarantee that your foot will no longer be attached to your ankle about 0.03 seconds later

Great, while you test that, I'll dive in head first, since that will be faster anyways.

 

have fun breaking your finger/dislocating your shoulder when you run into the first baseman's leg

[TheGrinch]

 

have fun breaking your finger/dislocating your shoulder when you run into the first baseman's leg

That is not what we are arguing and we have both already stated so.

[DeuceBaseman]

i'm curious about this "experiment". you had 10 buddies run to first and slide into first and timed them. how many times did they do each version? were they just running or were they hitting off a tee?

 

1/2 a second faster sounds awfully dubious

 

I had 9 of my friends, and me. So 10 of us did it. Some of us had a lot of baseball skills and sliding skills while some have never slid before and I had to teach them how to slide. Each one of us ran to first through the bag 5 times, slid into first feet first 5 times, and slid head first 5 times. Some of us did it in a different order, like some slid head first first, some ran through first, and some slid feet first first. I had them start at home plate and just sprint towards first. I timed them as soon as they started moving and stopped it as soon as they hit the bag. Almost every trial (except for maybe 2 scores) showed that sliding feet first was fastest, followed by head first, then running through. One of my friends timed me as well and I had it in that same order. I averaged all the scores and it was about .5 seconds faster to slide feet than it was to run through. And about .3 seconds faster to slide feet than slide head. I think this showed me a lot, especially since I used many different skill leveled people. I'm going to try it again this year with my HS team.