Mike Fontenot

[Skyballer]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

what it all comes down to is runs scored, not homeruns.

[brinoch]

Theriot is 11 of 27 in OBP in terms of SS for the league, and 4 of 30, He's above average.

 

in one statistic (albeit an important one)

How 'bout 6 of 14 in BA

 

okay so now we're delving into the unimportant statistics. Shall we head along to stolen bases?

I already did, in terms of unimportant, Henderson waves hello

 

Did you just compare the Riot to Rickey Henderson?

No i said SB was important.

 

They're much less important now than they were in Ricky's heyday. The game is much more reliant on power now to advance and score runners.

Because we all know the Cubs are leading the league in HR :roll:

 

Which is a solid reason why SS should be upgraded. You weakened your own point -- Theriot's power is irrelevant because he gets on base and creates runs. The Cubs need more power, and SS is a part of that weakness.

[Skyballer]

Theriot is 11 of 27 in OBP in terms of SS for the league, and 4 of 30, He's above average.

 

in one statistic (albeit an important one)

How 'bout 6 of 14 in BA

 

okay so now we're delving into the unimportant statistics. Shall we head along to stolen bases?

I already did, in terms of unimportant, Henderson waves hello

 

Did you just compare the Riot to Rickey Henderson?

No i said SB was important.

 

They're much less important now than they were in Ricky's heyday. The game is much more reliant on power now to advance and score runners.

Because we all know the Cubs are leading the league in HR :roll:

 

Which is a solid reason why SS should be upgraded. You weakened your own point -- Theriot's power is irrelevant because he gets on base and creates runs. The Cubs need more power, and SS is a part of that weakness.

They're winning elsewhere.

[TruffleShuffle]

Theriot is 11 of 27 in OBP in terms of SS for the league, and 4 of 30, He's above average.

 

in one statistic (albeit an important one)

How 'bout 6 of 14 in BA

 

okay so now we're delving into the unimportant statistics. Shall we head along to stolen bases?

I already did, in terms of unimportant, Henderson waves hello

 

Rickey Henderson wasn't great because he stole a lot of bases... he was great because he put up a career .401 OBP and a 127 OPS+ from the leadoff spot (!)

[brinoch]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Edited July 31, 2007 by brinoch

[E.J.]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be taken heard, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

 

Sure he does. Just ask Lou or Muskat.

[brinoch]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

what it all comes down to is runs scored, not homeruns.

 

True. Runs and outs are the two most important factors in any baseball game. And the way to score more runs is to make fewer outs, hence on-base percentage's value (or out percentage if you flip the number) both as a metric and as an intrinsic part of the game. Unfortunately, without a lot of power, a player's OBP can only get so high -- HR power vastly increases OBP potential because the luck element of BABIP is completely removed on those hits.

 

Furthermore, more power tends to equal more runs -- not as well as OBP, but certainly highly correlative. To put it differently, if you could have two SS's, one who posts a .350/.350 OBP/SLG and one who posts a .350/.400 OBP/SLG, you would choose the latter one, yes?

 

What about a .335/.400 one?

[Sammy Sofa]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

what it all comes down to is runs scored, not homeruns.

 

POWER ISN'T JUST HITTING HOMERUNS.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

 

Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else.

 

MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2?

[brinoch]

Lee, of course.

 

Now, on my own, I'd go:

 

Lee

Pujols

ARod

Ramirez

Soriano

 

 

:)

[Skyballer]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

[E.J.]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

 

The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well."

[Skyballer]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

 

Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else.

 

MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2?

irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average.

My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Skyballer

[Skyballer]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

 

The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well."

Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power.

[E.J.]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

 

The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well."

Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power.

 

So the games we played at the beginning of the year don't count?

[Skyballer]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

 

The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well."

Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power.

 

So the games we played at the beginning of the year don't count?

We are scoring runs right now and we are winning right now without power. Of course, the earlier games count. However we are still winning NOW, what happened earlier is in the past we need to score runs now and we are. I don't see anyone bashing Z right now. That's the logic you're using.

[E.J.]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

 

The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well."

Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power.

 

So the games we played at the beginning of the year don't count?

We are scoring runs right now and we are winning right now without power. Of course, the earlier games count. However we are still winning NOW, what happened earlier is in the past we need to score runs now and we are. I don't see anyone bashing Z right now. That's the logic you're using.

 

What are you talking about? Z's season numbers are very good.

 

Are we supposed to discount when the team plays badly and when players slump? That's the logic you're using.

 

Theriot is having a great July, but did you look at his May and June numbers?

[Skyballer]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

 

The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well."

Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power.

 

So the games we played at the beginning of the year don't count?

We are scoring runs right now and we are winning right now without power. Of course, the earlier games count. However we are still winning NOW, what happened earlier is in the past we need to score runs now and we are. I don't see anyone bashing Z right now. That's the logic you're using.

 

What are you talking about? Z's season numbers are very good.

 

Are we supposed to discount when the team plays badly and when players slump? That's the logic you're using.

 

Theriot is having a great July, but did you look at his May and June numbers?

If we're going to use your logic then we should remeber Z's start of the year- Pathetic.

[E.J.]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

 

The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well."

Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power.

 

So the games we played at the beginning of the year don't count?

We are scoring runs right now and we are winning right now without power. Of course, the earlier games count. However we are still winning NOW, what happened earlier is in the past we need to score runs now and we are. I don't see anyone bashing Z right now. That's the logic you're using.

 

What are you talking about? Z's season numbers are very good.

 

Are we supposed to discount when the team plays badly and when players slump? That's the logic you're using.

 

Theriot is having a great July, but did you look at his May and June numbers?

If we're going to use your logic then we should remeber Z's start of the year- Pathetic.

 

Once again. The season consists of 162 games. They all matter. Sure, Z was bad to start the season, but he has gotten much better and now his numbers are very respectable.

 

The Cubs offense has been better, but over the course of the season they have been below average.

[Skyballer]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

 

The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well."

Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power.

 

So the games we played at the beginning of the year don't count?

We are scoring runs right now and we are winning right now without power. Of course, the earlier games count. However we are still winning NOW, what happened earlier is in the past we need to score runs now and we are. I don't see anyone bashing Z right now. That's the logic you're using.

 

What are you talking about? Z's season numbers are very good.

 

Are we supposed to discount when the team plays badly and when players slump? That's the logic you're using.

 

Theriot is having a great July, but did you look at his May and June numbers?

If we're going to use your logic then we should remeber Z's start of the year- Pathetic.

 

Once again. The season consists of 162 games. They all matter. Sure, Z was bad to start the season, but he has gotten much better and now his numbers are very respectable.

 

The Cubs offense has been better, but over the course of the season they have been below average.

Yes, but not because of Theriot, because of underachievers like Sori who are being paid to be average.

[E.J.]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

 

The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well."

Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power.

 

So the games we played at the beginning of the year don't count?

We are scoring runs right now and we are winning right now without power. Of course, the earlier games count. However we are still winning NOW, what happened earlier is in the past we need to score runs now and we are. I don't see anyone bashing Z right now. That's the logic you're using.

 

What are you talking about? Z's season numbers are very good.

 

Are we supposed to discount when the team plays badly and when players slump? That's the logic you're using.

 

Theriot is having a great July, but did you look at his May and June numbers?

If we're going to use your logic then we should remeber Z's start of the year- Pathetic.

 

Once again. The season consists of 162 games. They all matter. Sure, Z was bad to start the season, but he has gotten much better and now his numbers are very respectable.

 

The Cubs offense has been better, but over the course of the season they have been below average.

Yes, but not because of Theriot, because of underachievers like Sori who are being paid to be average.

 

Okay. Theriot has been good in July, but the Cubs were scoring runs in June and Theriot was bad.

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

[Skyballer]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

[Productive Outs]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

 

why do you have to have a "hole" per se to upgrade?

[E.J.]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

 

Yes, SS could be upgraded. Theriot's .710 OPS isn't that great. That could definitely be upgraded. I'm just saying he's the best option the Cubs have right now.

[Skyballer]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

 

why do you have to have a "hole" per se to upgrade?

There is no upgrade available at short and Theriot is a big part of this offense.

Heres the proof.

cubs are playing small ball

small ball=sb+singles

sb+singles=Riot