Jones back to Twins?

[Banedon]

How come everyone is so quick to trade Jones and think Walker can do no wrong. To me it seems that Jones is a team player, while Walker seems to just care about himself. I really don't care if he bobbles the ball or not last Friday, but to call out Cedeno is very unprofessional. The veteran move would have been to just keep your mouth shut. But no, Todd Walker is a media whore! If it was widely known that the Cubs wanted to trade him last off season, then why wasen't a deal made? Dosen't it seem odd that he has been on SIX teams in TEN years?

 

In 9 more ABs Jones has a higher BA, more hits, RBIs, more HRs, and strikeouts, but because he has a lower OBP and lower walk total he should be traded the first chance we get?

 

Did Walker try and blame Ramirez on his second error last night. Did that throw handcuff him too? Everybody else's fault but his.

 

I don't have the stats available, but I suspect that Walker's offensive stats compare more favorably vs average 2b production than Jones's does against average RF production. That's a guess on my part, and maybe I'm wrong.

[CubColtPacer]

How come everyone is so quick to trade Jones and think Walker can do no wrong. To me it seems that Jones is a team player, while Walker seems to just care about himself. I really don't care if he bobbles the ball or not last Friday, but to call out Cedeno is very unprofessional. The veteran move would have been to just keep your mouth shut. But no, Todd Walker is a media whore! If it was widely known that the Cubs wanted to trade him last off season, then why wasen't a deal made? Dosen't it seem odd that he has been on SIX teams in TEN years?

 

In 9 more ABs Jones has a higher BA, more hits, RBIs, more HRs, and strikeouts, but because he has a lower OBP and lower walk total he should be traded the first chance we get?

 

Did Walker try and blame Ramirez on his second error last night. Did that throw handcuff him too? Everybody else's fault but his.

 

You are comparing Apples and Oranges. Jones is overpaid and on the books for two more years after this, he is a corner outfielder so should have more HR's and RBI's. Todd Walker at a fraction of the the price is still a much better deal whether you think he is a malcontent or not.

 

Well, let's see. Jones's numbers are only slightly below Magglio's numbers-so I guess his 16,000,000 must be the worst signing ever. The Tigers must be looking to dump him for whoever since he he is way overpaid-he should only be making 5 million a season like Jacque, right?

How about Vladimir Guererro-his numbers are only at best moderately better also (5 extra homeruns, .2 OBP). Does that mean he's not worth his 13.5 million dollars? Should the Angels be looking to get rid of him for whatever they can get? Moises Alou is maybe putting up the same stats as Jones, and he is getting paid 7.5 million-overpaid. Encarnacion is only making 3.5 million, but he's not doing as well as Jones is-overpaid. Reggie Sanders is making 5 million-and he's not doing nearly as well as Jones-dreadfully overpaid. The names could go on-Jose Guillen, Shawn Green, J.D. Drew, Brian Giles, Geoff Jenkins. None of their numbers would match their salary figures.

 

I just provided 10 names that are making comparable or as in the case of 8 of the names much more than Jones. I could provide several more names. Jones is an average to below average salary player for his position, and he's providing above average production for his position. You mentioned home runs-he's 7th for RF's. He's 9th in OPS, so he is better than most of the right fielders around the league right now. Will he go into a tailspin? Maybe-but how long does he have to continue playing like this before his contract will be known as a good one? If he plays like this for all 3 years, Jacque Jones will actually be dreadfully underpaid for the relative amount that people get at his position.

[Banedon]

If he plays like this for all 3 years, Jacque Jones will actually be dreadfully underpaid for the relative amount that people get at his position.

 

Jacque in the last 7 days: .167/.167/.250

 

Of course that's a relatively small sample size, but I'm not sure if you can make an "If he plays like this" argument when he's not exactly tearing it up right now.

 

Did I hear something like was 0 for his last 50-something at home?

[badgercub]

How come everyone is so quick to trade Jones and think Walker can do no wrong. To me it seems that Jones is a team player, while Walker seems to just care about himself. I really don't care if he bobbles the ball or not last Friday, but to call out Cedeno is very unprofessional. The veteran move would have been to just keep your mouth shut. But no, Todd Walker is a media whore! If it was widely known that the Cubs wanted to trade him last off season, then why wasen't a deal made? Dosen't it seem odd that he has been on SIX teams in TEN years?

 

In 9 more ABs Jones has a higher BA, more hits, RBIs, more HRs, and strikeouts, but because he has a lower OBP and lower walk total he should be traded the first chance we get?

 

Did Walker try and blame Ramirez on his second error last night. Did that throw handcuff him too? Everybody else's fault but his.

 

You are comparing Apples and Oranges. Jones is overpaid and on the books for two more years after this, he is a corner outfielder so should have more HR's and RBI's. Todd Walker at a fraction of the the price is still a much better deal whether you think he is a malcontent or not.

 

Well, let's see. Jones's numbers are only slightly below Magglio's numbers-so I guess his 16,000,000 must be the worst signing ever. The Tigers must be looking to dump him for whoever since he he is way overpaid-he should only be making 5 million a season like Jacque, right?

How about Vladimir Guererro-his numbers are only at best moderately better also (5 extra homeruns, .2 OBP). Does that mean he's not worth his 13.5 million dollars? Should the Angels be looking to get rid of him for whatever they can get? Moises Alou is maybe putting up the same stats as Jones, and he is getting paid 7.5 million-overpaid. Encarnacion is only making 3.5 million, but he's not doing as well as Jones is-overpaid. Reggie Sanders is making 5 million-and he's not doing nearly as well as Jones-dreadfully overpaid. The names could go on-Jose Guillen, Shawn Green, J.D. Drew, Brian Giles, Geoff Jenkins. None of their numbers would match their salary figures.

 

I just provided 10 names that are making comparable or as in the case of 8 of the names much more than Jones. I could provide several more names. Jones is an average to below average salary player for his position, and he's providing above average production for his position. You mentioned home runs-he's 7th for RF's. He's 9th in OPS, so he is better than most of the right fielders around the league right now. Will he go into a tailspin? Maybe-but how long does he have to continue playing like this before his contract will be known as a good one? If he plays like this for all 3 years, Jacque Jones will actually be dreadfully underpaid for the relative amount that people get at his position.

 

First off, I didn't compare Jones to other right fielders, it was a comparison between him and Todd Walker. Second of all, most of the guys that you mentioned have much better career numbers than Jones. While Jones is putting up great numbers in half a season, the odds are that he will revert back to his career norms before the end of his contract in which case, he will be grossly overpaid and still on the Cubs books for another couple of years. I applaud Jacque for his performance at the plate so far this year, he still is horrible defensively though also. Also I would say that some of those guys on your list are overpaid also (Geoff Jenkins)

[CubColtPacer]

If he plays like this for all 3 years, Jacque Jones will actually be dreadfully underpaid for the relative amount that people get at his position.

 

Jacque in the last 7 days: .167/.167/.250

 

Of course that's a relatively small sample size, but I'm not sure if you can make an "If he plays like this" argument when he's not exactly tearing it up right now.

 

Did I hear something like was 0 for his last 50-something at home?

 

Well, yes-but I am saying his stats for the entire season-including his awful April. That last 7 days includes the All Star Break, does it not? I think it has to, since he had 3 hits last Sunday. No, he's not 0 for 50 something at home. He actually had an RBI hit last night-had a tough series against the Mets though with only 2 hits. That 0 for 52 stat you heard was his stats after getting into an 0-2 count all season. So, if he plays like his averages for the season, he will be getting us more value for his money than the average right fielder in the majors.

[Wheelimus]

I only advocate trading Jones because he's one of our few tradeable chips which we would be dealing from a position of strength. I like Jacque and had a feeling that signing was going to work out better than some thought, but come on, if you're trading for Jones and hoping to get .300/.329/.517/.843 out of him...you're probably overpayin for Jacque Jones.

 

If we could net Scott Baker and perhaps a positional prospect {looking at their AAA affiliate, Jason Tyner looks like someone I'd like to see, potential for decent OBP there} for Jones, maybe eating a little cash to make him fit into Minnesota's budget, you have to do it.

[CubColtPacer]

How come everyone is so quick to trade Jones and think Walker can do no wrong. To me it seems that Jones is a team player, while Walker seems to just care about himself. I really don't care if he bobbles the ball or not last Friday, but to call out Cedeno is very unprofessional. The veteran move would have been to just keep your mouth shut. But no, Todd Walker is a media whore! If it was widely known that the Cubs wanted to trade him last off season, then why wasen't a deal made? Dosen't it seem odd that he has been on SIX teams in TEN years?

 

In 9 more ABs Jones has a higher BA, more hits, RBIs, more HRs, and strikeouts, but because he has a lower OBP and lower walk total he should be traded the first chance we get?

 

Did Walker try and blame Ramirez on his second error last night. Did that throw handcuff him too? Everybody else's fault but his.

 

You are comparing Apples and Oranges. Jones is overpaid and on the books for two more years after this, he is a corner outfielder so should have more HR's and RBI's. Todd Walker at a fraction of the the price is still a much better deal whether you think he is a malcontent or not.

 

Well, let's see. Jones's numbers are only slightly below Magglio's numbers-so I guess his 16,000,000 must be the worst signing ever. The Tigers must be looking to dump him for whoever since he he is way overpaid-he should only be making 5 million a season like Jacque, right?

How about Vladimir Guererro-his numbers are only at best moderately better also (5 extra homeruns, .2 OBP). Does that mean he's not worth his 13.5 million dollars? Should the Angels be looking to get rid of him for whatever they can get? Moises Alou is maybe putting up the same stats as Jones, and he is getting paid 7.5 million-overpaid. Encarnacion is only making 3.5 million, but he's not doing as well as Jones is-overpaid. Reggie Sanders is making 5 million-and he's not doing nearly as well as Jones-dreadfully overpaid. The names could go on-Jose Guillen, Shawn Green, J.D. Drew, Brian Giles, Geoff Jenkins. None of their numbers would match their salary figures.

 

I just provided 10 names that are making comparable or as in the case of 8 of the names much more than Jones. I could provide several more names. Jones is an average to below average salary player for his position, and he's providing above average production for his position. You mentioned home runs-he's 7th for RF's. He's 9th in OPS, so he is better than most of the right fielders around the league right now. Will he go into a tailspin? Maybe-but how long does he have to continue playing like this before his contract will be known as a good one? If he plays like this for all 3 years, Jacque Jones will actually be dreadfully underpaid for the relative amount that people get at his position.

 

First off, I didn't compare Jones to other right fielders, it was a comparison between him and Todd Walker. Second of all, most of the guys that you mentioned have much better career numbers than Jones. While Jones is putting up great numbers in half a season, the odds are that he will revert back to his career norms before the end of his contract in which case, he will be grossly overpaid and still on the Cubs books for another couple of years. I applaud Jacque for his performance at the plate so far this year, he still is horrible defensively though also. Also I would say that some of those guys on your list are overpaid also (Geoff Jenkins)

 

So if Jones stays and keeps this up next year you will call it a great contract and that he is underpaid? How long does he have to prove the numbers before he earns his relatively small contract? Out of all the right fielders who have made it to free agency, Jones has one of smallest contracts out there-and right now, he's outproducing most of them. How long does he have to keep that up?

[CubColtPacer]

I only advocate trading Jones because he's one of our few tradeable chips which we would be dealing from a position of strength. I like Jacque and had a feeling that signing was going to work out better than some thought, but come on, if you're trading for Jones and hoping to get .300/.329/.517/.843 out of him...you're probably overpayin for Jacque Jones.

 

If we could net Scott Baker and perhaps a positional prospect {looking at their AAA affiliate, Jason Tyner looks like someone I'd like to see, potential for decent OBP there} for Jones, maybe eating a little cash to make him fit into Minnesota's budget, you have to do it.

 

I would definitely agree with this. Jones will turn out to be an average right fielder who is making below average money. If by this hot streak however you can convince a team like the Twins that he is actually one of the top 10 right fielders in the league and get the prospects to match, then you have to make the deal. I have no problem getting rid of him, but I don't think his contract is an albatross either that we need to get rid of. If we get the right deal, he goes. Otherwise, we are getting good production for the money we are paying him.

[Banedon]

If he plays like this for all 3 years, Jacque Jones will actually be dreadfully underpaid for the relative amount that people get at his position.

 

Jacque in the last 7 days: .167/.167/.250

 

Of course that's a relatively small sample size, but I'm not sure if you can make an "If he plays like this" argument when he's not exactly tearing it up right now.

 

Did I hear something like was 0 for his last 50-something at home?

 

Well, yes-but I am saying his stats for the entire season-including his awful April. That last 7 days includes the All Star Break, does it not? I think it has to, since he had 3 hits last Sunday. No, he's not 0 for 50 something at home. He actually had an RBI hit last night-had a tough series against the Mets though with only 2 hits. That 0 for 52 stat you heard was his stats after getting into an 0-2 count all season. So, if he plays like his averages for the season, he will be getting us more value for his money than the average right fielder in the majors.

 

You're right, it was the 0-2 stat...my bad. And you're probably right about the 7 day thing too...I blame Monday mornings.

[badgercub]

So if Jones stays and keeps this up next year you will call it a great contract and that he is underpaid? How long does he have to prove the numbers before he earns his relatively small contract? Out of all the right fielders who have made it to free agency, Jones has one of smallest contracts out there-and right now, he's outproducing most of them. How long does he have to keep that up?

 

Jones is on the downside of his career and magically he is going to start putting up career best in numbers? I am not saying Jacque is horrible I am just saying he was not a good signing. Career numbers for some of the guys you mentioned and compared to for a half season.

 

Career OPS

 

Jones: .787

Vlad: .971

Alou: .883

Sanders: .831

Encarnacion: .756

 

So, of those players Jones matches up most comparably with Encarnacion yet is making about 2 million more a year. So, if you think Jones is worth the 3 years 16 million for his career .787 OPS then so be it. I just don't think you can justify the contract on a half season, and realistically I don't think he will put up an .850 OPS for three years. There is nothing in his past that would indicate that. If he does then you will have a legitimate point.

[CubColtPacer]

So if Jones stays and keeps this up next year you will call it a great contract and that he is underpaid? How long does he have to prove the numbers before he earns his relatively small contract? Out of all the right fielders who have made it to free agency, Jones has one of smallest contracts out there-and right now, he's outproducing most of them. How long does he have to keep that up?

 

Jones is on the downside of his career and magically he is going to start putting up career best in numbers? I am not saying Jacque is horrible I am just saying he was not a good signing. Career numbers for some of the guys you mentioned and compared to for a half season.

 

Career OPS

 

Jones: .787

Vlad: .971

Alou: .883

Sanders: .831

Encarnacion: .756

 

So, of those players Jones matches up most comparably with Encarnacion yet is making about 2 million more a year. So, if you think Jones is worth the 3 years 16 million for his career .787 OPS then so be it. I just don't think you can justify the contract on a half season, and realistically I don't think he will put up an .850 OPS for three years. There is nothing in his past that would indicate that. If he does then you will have a legitimate point.

 

I doubt Jones will put up an .850 OPS for 3 years. Let me put up some of the other right fielders however.

Shawn Green-hasn't had above an .830 OPS in 3 years-making 10.2 million this year.

Brian Giles-his slugging is dropping off, has had an OPS of .849, .906, and this year all the way down to .781. He is making 7.67 million this year.

Kevin Mench- .763 OPS after a .797 last year. Making 2.8 million.

Geoff Jenkins-.759 OPS this year, .798 and .888 before that. making 7.8 million this year.

Juan Encarnacion-.755 OPS this year, previous two years .701 and .796. making 3.5 million this year.

Randy Winn-had an exceptional OBP last year with only 235 at bats, now this year with full amount of at bats back to previous years with Seattle and a .755 OPS. He makes 5 million this year.

Jay Payton-.694 OPS this year, two years previous were .742 and .755. He makes 4 million dollars.

Magglio Ordonez-His last 3 years OPS have been .836, .795, and now this year back somewhat with a .857 OPS. He makes 16.2 million this year.

Trot Nixon-his last 2 years of full-time play have an OPS of .803, and this year a very good .854. He makes 7.5 million.

Jacque Jones-previous 2 years has a .742 and a .757 OPS. This year, it is .846. He makes 4.03 million this year.

 

There are only 22 qualified right fielders so far this year. Out of those qualified, I threw out 6 of them since they hadn't hit free agency yet. I also threw out Bernie Williams since he only signed for 1.5 million (he isn't putting up good numbers anyway) Out of the 15 left, you see 10 of those. The only ones left are Jermaine Dye, Bobby Abreu, Vladimir Guerrerro, Ichiro Suzuki, and J.D. Drew. Drew could easily climb to the list above if he has another bad year with his 11+ million dollar contract.

 

So-is Jones's contract really that much different then most of the right fielders who have hit free agency? He is getting paid less then everybody but Mench and Encarnacion, and he is hitting better then both of them. Plus, many of those guys have double the contract of Jones, or in Ordonez's case triple, which makes their production even more skeptical. If Jones even puts up a .785 OPS over the next two and a half years, the contract will be worth it compared to all the othr right fielders.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

IF Jones puts up these numbers over the life of his contract, I consider it to be a bargain. However, that is a huge if. I don't think any Cubs fan wants him to fail or regress to his norms, but it's not out of line to think it will happen. And when it does happen, he's no longer a bargain but a liability.

[badgercub]

Idoubt Jones will put up an .850 OPS for 3 years. Let me put up some of the other right fielders however.

Shawn Green-hasn't had above an .830 OPS in 3 years-making 10.2 million this year.

Brian Giles-his slugging is dropping off, has had an OPS of .849, .906, and this year all the way down to .781. He is making 7.67 million this year.

Kevin Mench- .763 OPS after a .797 last year. Making 2.8 million.

Geoff Jenkins-.759 OPS this year, .798 and .888 before that. making 7.8 million this year.

Juan Encarnacion-.755 OPS this year, previous two years .701 and .796. making 3.5 million this year.

Randy Winn-had an exceptional OBP last year with only 235 at bats, now this year with full amount of at bats back to previous years with Seattle and a .755 OPS. He makes 5 million this year.

Jay Payton-.694 OPS this year, two years previous were .742 and .755. He makes 4 million dollars.

Magglio Ordonez-His last 3 years OPS have been .836, .795, and now this year back somewhat with a .857 OPS. He makes 16.2 million this year.

Trot Nixon-his last 2 years of full-time play have an OPS of .803, and this year a very good .854. He makes 7.5 million.

Jacque Jones-previous 2 years has a .742 and a .757 OPS. This year, it is .846. He makes 4.03 million this year.

 

There are only 22 qualified right fielders so far this year. Out of those qualified, I threw out 6 of them since they hadn't hit free agency yet. I also threw out Bernie Williams since he only signed for 1.5 million (he isn't putting up good numbers anyway) Out of the 15 left, you see 10 of those. The only ones left are Jermaine Dye, Bobby Abreu, Vladimir Guerrerro, Ichiro Suzuki, and J.D. Drew. Drew could easily climb to the list above if he has another bad year with his 11+ million dollar contract.

 

So-is Jones's contract really that much different then most of the right fielders who have hit free agency? He is getting paid less then everybody but Mench and Encarnacion, and he is hitting better then both of them. Plus, many of those guys have double the contract of Jones, or in Ordonez's case triple, which makes their production even more skeptical. If Jones even puts up a .785 OPS over the next two and a half years, the contract will be worth it compared to all the othr right fielders.

 

Like I said you are basing your analysis on a half a years production while I am looking at career numbers. In the case of these other guys I will just say that because other GM's may have signed players to a bad deal, doesn't mean Hendry had too, especially when he was basically bidding against himself. (KC was the only other team showing interest) Also, while he has put up numbers at the plate, his defense is horrible and his baserunning gaffes have been inexcusable.

[Banedon]

For me, this is a case of "sell high". I just don't see Jacque being a part of a successful Cubs team. I think he's a defensive liability, and I don't see him maintaining this level of performance.

[CubColtPacer]

Idoubt Jones will put up an .850 OPS for 3 years. Let me put up some of the other right fielders however.

Shawn Green-hasn't had above an .830 OPS in 3 years-making 10.2 million this year.

Brian Giles-his slugging is dropping off, has had an OPS of .849, .906, and this year all the way down to .781. He is making 7.67 million this year.

Kevin Mench- .763 OPS after a .797 last year. Making 2.8 million.

Geoff Jenkins-.759 OPS this year, .798 and .888 before that. making 7.8 million this year.

Juan Encarnacion-.755 OPS this year, previous two years .701 and .796. making 3.5 million this year.

Randy Winn-had an exceptional OBP last year with only 235 at bats, now this year with full amount of at bats back to previous years with Seattle and a .755 OPS. He makes 5 million this year.

Jay Payton-.694 OPS this year, two years previous were .742 and .755. He makes 4 million dollars.

Magglio Ordonez-His last 3 years OPS have been .836, .795, and now this year back somewhat with a .857 OPS. He makes 16.2 million this year.

Trot Nixon-his last 2 years of full-time play have an OPS of .803, and this year a very good .854. He makes 7.5 million.

Jacque Jones-previous 2 years has a .742 and a .757 OPS. This year, it is .846. He makes 4.03 million this year.

 

There are only 22 qualified right fielders so far this year. Out of those qualified, I threw out 6 of them since they hadn't hit free agency yet. I also threw out Bernie Williams since he only signed for 1.5 million (he isn't putting up good numbers anyway) Out of the 15 left, you see 10 of those. The only ones left are Jermaine Dye, Bobby Abreu, Vladimir Guerrerro, Ichiro Suzuki, and J.D. Drew. Drew could easily climb to the list above if he has another bad year with his 11+ million dollar contract.

 

So-is Jones's contract really that much different then most of the right fielders who have hit free agency? He is getting paid less then everybody but Mench and Encarnacion, and he is hitting better then both of them. Plus, many of those guys have double the contract of Jones, or in Ordonez's case triple, which makes their production even more skeptical. If Jones even puts up a .785 OPS over the next two and a half years, the contract will be worth it compared to all the othr right fielders.

 

Like I said you are basing your analysis on a half a years production while I am looking at career numbers. In the case of these other guys I will just say that because other GM's may have signed players to a bad deal, doesn't mean Hendry had too, especially when he was basically bidding against himself. (KC was the only other team showing interest)

 

What could we do in RF then? If these players were not the answer, then who? Who is that player that could have produced for us at a better clip that was anywhere available? Many people said Brian Giles, but so far, his contract is looking like a much bigger liability. His production is falling, and he is making twice as much as Jones for the same 3 years with a 3 million dollar buyout in 2009. So if not Jones, then what was Hendry supposed to do?

[goonys evil twin]

What could we do in RF then? If these players were not the answer, then who? Who is that player that could have produced for us at a better clip that was anywhere available? Many people said Brian Giles, but so far, his contract is looking like a much bigger liability. His production is falling, and he is making twice as much as Jones for the same 3 years with a 3 million dollar buyout in 2009. So if not Jones, then what was Hendry supposed to do?

 

The corner OF hole didn't just come out of nowhere this offseason. They could have, and should have filled the hole long ago, before the options came down to Jacque Jones and Juan Encarnacion.

[Banedon]

What could we do in RF then? If these players were not the answer, then who? Who is that player that could have produced for us at a better clip that was anywhere available? Many people said Brian Giles, but so far, his contract is looking like a much bigger liability. His production is falling, and he is making twice as much as Jones for the same 3 years with a 3 million dollar buyout in 2009. So if not Jones, then what was Hendry supposed to do?

 

Craig Wilson would've looked nice in RF if Hendry could get him.

[badgercub]

Idoubt Jones will put up an .850 OPS for 3 years. Let me put up some of the other right fielders however.

Shawn Green-hasn't had above an .830 OPS in 3 years-making 10.2 million this year.

Brian Giles-his slugging is dropping off, has had an OPS of .849, .906, and this year all the way down to .781. He is making 7.67 million this year.

Kevin Mench- .763 OPS after a .797 last year. Making 2.8 million.

Geoff Jenkins-.759 OPS this year, .798 and .888 before that. making 7.8 million this year.

Juan Encarnacion-.755 OPS this year, previous two years .701 and .796. making 3.5 million this year.

Randy Winn-had an exceptional OBP last year with only 235 at bats, now this year with full amount of at bats back to previous years with Seattle and a .755 OPS. He makes 5 million this year.

Jay Payton-.694 OPS this year, two years previous were .742 and .755. He makes 4 million dollars.

Magglio Ordonez-His last 3 years OPS have been .836, .795, and now this year back somewhat with a .857 OPS. He makes 16.2 million this year.

Trot Nixon-his last 2 years of full-time play have an OPS of .803, and this year a very good .854. He makes 7.5 million.

Jacque Jones-previous 2 years has a .742 and a .757 OPS. This year, it is .846. He makes 4.03 million this year.

 

There are only 22 qualified right fielders so far this year. Out of those qualified, I threw out 6 of them since they hadn't hit free agency yet. I also threw out Bernie Williams since he only signed for 1.5 million (he isn't putting up good numbers anyway) Out of the 15 left, you see 10 of those. The only ones left are Jermaine Dye, Bobby Abreu, Vladimir Guerrerro, Ichiro Suzuki, and J.D. Drew. Drew could easily climb to the list above if he has another bad year with his 11+ million dollar contract.

 

So-is Jones's contract really that much different then most of the right fielders who have hit free agency? He is getting paid less then everybody but Mench and Encarnacion, and he is hitting better then both of them. Plus, many of those guys have double the contract of Jones, or in Ordonez's case triple, which makes their production even more skeptical. If Jones even puts up a .785 OPS over the next two and a half years, the contract will be worth it compared to all the othr right fielders.

 

Like I said you are basing your analysis on a half a years production while I am looking at career numbers. In the case of these other guys I will just say that because other GM's may have signed players to a bad deal, doesn't mean Hendry had too, especially when he was basically bidding against himself. (KC was the only other team showing interest)

 

What could we do in RF then? If these players were not the answer, then who? Who is that player that could have produced for us at a better clip that was anywhere available? Many people said Brian Giles, but so far, his contract is looking like a much bigger liability. His production is falling, and he is making twice as much as Jones for the same 3 years with a 3 million dollar buyout in 2009. So if not Jones, then what was Hendry supposed to do?

 

All I can say is, I think you are looking at the short term and putting far too much emphasis on it. I still would have rather have had Giles than Jones. Hindsight is 20/20 but looking forward I would say Giles' numbers will improve and Jone's will decline.

[Backtobanks]

Idoubt Jones will put up an .850 OPS for 3 years. Let me put up some of the other right fielders however.

Shawn Green-hasn't had above an .830 OPS in 3 years-making 10.2 million this year.

Brian Giles-his slugging is dropping off, has had an OPS of .849, .906, and this year all the way down to .781. He is making 7.67 million this year.

Kevin Mench- .763 OPS after a .797 last year. Making 2.8 million.

Geoff Jenkins-.759 OPS this year, .798 and .888 before that. making 7.8 million this year.

Juan Encarnacion-.755 OPS this year, previous two years .701 and .796. making 3.5 million this year.

Randy Winn-had an exceptional OBP last year with only 235 at bats, now this year with full amount of at bats back to previous years with Seattle and a .755 OPS. He makes 5 million this year.

Jay Payton-.694 OPS this year, two years previous were .742 and .755. He makes 4 million dollars.

Magglio Ordonez-His last 3 years OPS have been .836, .795, and now this year back somewhat with a .857 OPS. He makes 16.2 million this year.

Trot Nixon-his last 2 years of full-time play have an OPS of .803, and this year a very good .854. He makes 7.5 million.

Jacque Jones-previous 2 years has a .742 and a .757 OPS. This year, it is .846. He makes 4.03 million this year.

 

There are only 22 qualified right fielders so far this year. Out of those qualified, I threw out 6 of them since they hadn't hit free agency yet. I also threw out Bernie Williams since he only signed for 1.5 million (he isn't putting up good numbers anyway) Out of the 15 left, you see 10 of those. The only ones left are Jermaine Dye, Bobby Abreu, Vladimir Guerrerro, Ichiro Suzuki, and J.D. Drew. Drew could easily climb to the list above if he has another bad year with his 11+ million dollar contract.

 

So-is Jones's contract really that much different then most of the right fielders who have hit free agency? He is getting paid less then everybody but Mench and Encarnacion, and he is hitting better then both of them. Plus, many of those guys have double the contract of Jones, or in Ordonez's case triple, which makes their production even more skeptical. If Jones even puts up a .785 OPS over the next two and a half years, the contract will be worth it compared to all the othr right fielders.

 

Like I said you are basing your analysis on a half a years production while I am looking at career numbers. In the case of these other guys I will just say that because other GM's may have signed players to a bad deal, doesn't mean Hendry had too, especially when he was basically bidding against himself. (KC was the only other team showing interest) Also, while he has put up numbers at the plate, his defense is horrible and his baserunning gaffes have been inexcusable.

 

With inflation and crazy GMs, what is a "bad deal"? I wasn't a big fan of Jones' signing at the time, but I have stated in many posts that I don't think Jones' contract will hinder the Cubs at all when they decide to trade him. There will be teams willing to pay him $10 million/2 years especially if he continues to hit close to what he is hitting now. Most of the "good deals" out there involve younger players who haven't reached the arbitration stage and are still playing under a team-controlled contract. As soon as they put in the time, they will have contracts worth $10 -12 million per year too.

Edited July 17, 2006 by Backtobanks

[goonys evil twin]

With inflation and crazy GMs, what is a "bad deal"? I wasn't a big fan of Jones' signing at the time, but I have stated in many posts that I don't think Jones' contract will hinder the Cubs at all when they decide to trade him. There will be teams willing to pay him $10 million/2 years especially if he continues to hit close to what he is hitting now.

 

Except they will not decide to trade him. Hendry likes him and will keep him. Plus, $10m has gotten in the way before when players were up for trade.

[jjgman21]

another thread with arguments fueled by misinformation and medium term memory loss.

 

Encarnacion signed a 3 year 15M contract. Jones a 3 year 16M contract. is 50 additional points in OPS worth 1M over three years? I think it is.

 

second, let's recall who most everybody who hates Jones and has hated him from the beginning advocated getting. would Giles be worth the 15-17M per for three years so many of you advocated throwing at him?

 

everyone bitches that Hendry won't admit his own mistakes. where are the admissions that the moves that didn't go down might have been good moves and the advocates on this board were completely wrong (2004 - Huff, 2005 - Kotsay, 2006 - Giles)?

 

a good right handed hitting platoon parthner for Jones in rightfield gives us all the production we want out of the position. whether Hendry goes out and gets on remains to be seen, but Jones' contract is not an albatross on this organization.

[badgercub]

another thread with arguments fueled by misinformation and medium term memory loss.

 

Encarnacion signed a 3 year 15M contract. Jones a 3 year 16M contract. is 50 additional points in OPS worth 1M over three years? I think it is.

 

second, let's recall who most everybody who hates Jones and has hated him from the beginning advocated getting. would Giles be worth the 15-17M per for three years so many of you advocated throwing at him?

 

everyone bitches that Hendry won't admit his own mistakes. where are the admissions that the moves that didn't go down might have been good moves and the advocates on this board were completely wrong (2004 - Huff, 2005 - Kotsay, 2006 - Giles)?

 

a good right handed hitting platoon parthner for Jones in rightfield gives us all the production we want out of the position. whether Hendry goes out and gets on remains to be seen, but Jones' contract is not an albatross on this organization.

 

No one is hating on Jones for his production thus far. We just think it is unrealistic for him to keep performing at this level for an extended period of time. We are looking further out than the 20/20 hindsight involved in looking at the last few months. Jones is earning his money at the moment, we aren't denying that. Have you actually read the posts? I have been against his signing from day one and while he has performed at the plate, his defense and baserunning have been undeniably horrible. How hard is it to see that he has been hot for a couple of months hitting and that his career numbers don't suggest he can keep up that pace?

[jjgman21]

another thread with arguments fueled by misinformation and medium term memory loss.

 

Encarnacion signed a 3 year 15M contract. Jones a 3 year 16M contract. is 50 additional points in OPS worth 1M over three years? I think it is.

 

second, let's recall who most everybody who hates Jones and has hated him from the beginning advocated getting. would Giles be worth the 15-17M per for three years so many of you advocated throwing at him?

 

everyone bitches that Hendry won't admit his own mistakes. where are the admissions that the moves that didn't go down might have been good moves and the advocates on this board were completely wrong (2004 - Huff, 2005 - Kotsay, 2006 - Giles)?

 

a good right handed hitting platoon parthner for Jones in rightfield gives us all the production we want out of the position. whether Hendry goes out and gets on remains to be seen, but Jones' contract is not an albatross on this organization.

 

No one is hating on Jones for his production thus far. We just think it is unrealistic for him to keep performing at this level for an extended period of time. We are looking further out than the 20/20 hindsight involved in looking at the last few months. Jones is earning his money at the moment, we aren't denying that. Have you actually read the posts? I have been against his signing from day one and while he has performed at the plate, his defense and baserunning have been undeniably horrible. How hard is it to see that he has been hot for a couple of months hitting and that his career numbers don't suggest he can keep up that pace?

 

I hated the signing of Jones too. I was so p'd off about it I didn't even come to NSBB for two weeks. but that doesn't change the fact that Jones' expected production costs about exactly what he's being paid in today's market.

 

and it's amazing that when arguing about the contributions of defense and baserunning in the context of, let's say the Cubs centerfielder, many of the same people who rip on Jones for defense and baserunning will tell you how unimportant those aspects of the game are. strawman argument I know, but it's rampant.

 

I just seek consistent rationale and facts in these discussions instead of conjecture, misinformation, and hypocrisy. I seek poeple make positive suggestions instead of just bitching for the sake of bitching, and using faulty logic to do so.

[goonys evil twin]

and it's amazing that when arguing about the contributions of defense and baserunning in the context of, let's say the Cubs centerfielder, many of the same people who rip on Jones for defense and baserunning will tell you how unimportant those aspects of the game are. strawman argument I know, but it's rampant.

 

 

The Cubs centerfielder is an awful defender. Who has insinuated that is unimportant?

[badgercub]

another thread with arguments fueled by misinformation and medium term memory loss.

 

Encarnacion signed a 3 year 15M contract. Jones a 3 year 16M contract. is 50 additional points in OPS worth 1M over three years? I think it is.

 

second, let's recall who most everybody who hates Jones and has hated him from the beginning advocated getting. would Giles be worth the 15-17M per for three years so many of you advocated throwing at him?

 

everyone bitches that Hendry won't admit his own mistakes. where are the admissions that the moves that didn't go down might have been good moves and the advocates on this board were completely wrong (2004 - Huff, 2005 - Kotsay, 2006 - Giles)?

 

a good right handed hitting platoon parthner for Jones in rightfield gives us all the production we want out of the position. whether Hendry goes out and gets on remains to be seen, but Jones' contract is not an albatross on this organization.

 

No one is hating on Jones for his production thus far. We just think it is unrealistic for him to keep performing at this level for an extended period of time. We are looking further out than the 20/20 hindsight involved in looking at the last few months. Jones is earning his money at the moment, we aren't denying that. Have you actually read the posts? I have been against his signing from day one and while he has performed at the plate, his defense and baserunning have been undeniably horrible. How hard is it to see that he has been hot for a couple of months hitting and that his career numbers don't suggest he can keep up that pace?

 

I hated the signing of Jones too. I was so p'd off about it I didn't even come to NSBB for two weeks. but that doesn't change the fact that Jones' expected production costs about exactly what he's being paid in today's market.

 

and it's amazing that when arguing about the contributions of defense and baserunning in the context of, let's say the Cubs centerfielder, many of the same people who rip on Jones for defense and baserunning will tell you how unimportant those aspects of the game are. strawman argument I know, but it's rampant.

 

I just seek consistent rationale and facts in these discussions instead of conjecture, misinformation, and hypocrisy. I seek poeple make positive suggestions instead of just bitching for the sake of bitching, and using faulty logic to do so.

 

I've always thought Pierre had a weak arm and that Hendry gave up way too much for him