Taking a walk from A to AAA

[UK1679666180]

in sum, using BA, or plucking any random set of 4 or 5 prospects to prove a point about the overall organization is not an precise enough method. if there is a prospect list out there that ranks in terms of "10 position players who will help within the next two years, starter, platoon or bench, maximum 175 major league plate appearance" the list very well may be

 

It does both, typically you'll find BA as the most accurate as far as which top prospects will have the greatest impact at the ML level. It's not fool-proof, nor will it ever be.

 

To me, if focusing on an area of needed improvement, I focus more on the players more likely to impact the ML roster in the future. Putting equal weight on Theriot and Fonenot as Pie and Harvey doesn't make sense.

 

The graph that started this thread shows otherwise, that several other highly respected organizations are also relatively poor at drawing walks. On what evidence are you drawing your conclusion?

 

The graph doesn't show that the Cubs minor leaguers have problems at drawing BBs? I think it does, once again, I don't care if other "respected" teams are at them btm as well, the Cubs are still at the btm.

[UK1679666180]

I never said I didn't want the Cubs to have better plate discipline. I just said that on an organization wide basis, they weren't the only organization to have this problem. I'm just trying to keep the debate honest and provide some perspective. We can get quite myopically focused on the Cubs and their shortcomings (no all-stars in the OF, not the greatest plate discipline, etc.) on a board like this. Some of the comments start sounding like no self-respecting baseball team or GM would allow these shortcomings. It is at that point that I feel it is necessary to keep the debate honest and provide some perspective and remind people that the Cubs are not the only team with problems like these.

 

Who cares if other teams have the same problem, when did anyone isolate it to just being the Cubs?

 

This is a problem the Cubs have at every level, it needs to be addressed. The entire debate in this thread has been honest, the only one trying to shift it to being pessimistic about everything is you.

 

No one in this thread has focused on the Cubs' shortcomings (beyond lack of BBs) in the thread, to try and shift it is a poor tactic.

[UK1679666180]

Of course there is. No one is saying there isn't. All I was saying was that if the Cubs hadn't recently drafted young toolsy players like Harvey and Dopirak and had an even less talented group of hitters on their prospect list such that Sing was in your sample group, that the walks Brandon Sing gets would greatly skew the results of your research. My point wasn't to say that the Cubs shouldn't improve their plate discipline. My point was to show how, because your sample size is so small, the Cubs could have worse talent (ie not have Harvey or Dopirak) and show remarkably better numbers according to your research. In other words, your research is flawed.

 

Then, the Cubs would have a less talented hitter with better discipline while teams who have been better at developing or drafting patience have both the higher ceiling and the better eye at the plate.

 

Then, of course, you still have the original graph which factors players like Sing, Fontenot, Patterson, Theriot, etc.

 

If you draft toolsy hitters early like the Cubs do, you have to be good at developing or scouting patience. The further up you go, the more important it becomes.

 

If the Cubs drafted more higher college players with good BB/PA ratios out of college than toolsy HS hitters, the problem would not be there.

 

So, that gives them two choices to fix this problem, either draft higher ceiling collegiate players (or the HS player with a great eye) or figure out a better way to improve plate discipline and cont. to draft free-swinging toolsy HS hitters.

 

To me, the Cubs won't change from drafting HS hitters which is fine by me, but they better find out a different way to try and improve their strike zone if it shows it is problematic from the beginning.

[Guest]

...To me, the Cubs won't change from drafting HS hitters...

Do we know if that is true with Wilkin?

[Soul]

Interesting study.

 

However, please note the White Sox are very close to us and they won it all.

 

There is more than one way to the promised land. Give me 5 pitchers who make all their starts and perform at a high level, and I'll trump your OBP rookies any day.

[UK1679666180]

...To me, the Cubs won't change from drafting HS hitters...

Do we know if that is true with Wilkin?

 

Wilkin does have a greater history of drafting collegiate pos. players than the Cubs, was Brooksie the last Cubs collegiate pos. player drafted in the 1st?

 

 

Gabe Gross was a 1st rounder out of Auburn, so I think that possibility increases, it can't decrease any given the Cubs lack of collegiate pos. players in the 1st.

[Magnetic Curses]

i have a very good friend who's an umpire in the southern league. this person, who shall remain nameless for the time being, said that home plate umpires must call a different zone for A's farm players--they're too disciplined at the plate. in an effort to get them to swing, the umpires generally call a larger zone for A's hitters.

 

i wished they called a smaller zone for cubs hitters. talk about no organizational hitting philosophy, which is the most frustrating thing of all.

[goonys evil twin]

i have a very good friend who's an umpire in the southern league. this person, who shall remain nameless for the time being, said that home plate umpires must call a different zone for A's farm players--they're too disciplined at the plate. in an effort to get them to swing, the umpires generally call a larger zone for A's hitters.

 

Whose mandate is that?

[Magnetic Curses]

i have a very good friend who's an umpire in the southern league. this person, who shall remain nameless for the time being, said that home plate umpires must call a different zone for A's farm players--they're too disciplined at the plate. in an effort to get them to swing, the umpires generally call a larger zone for A's hitters.

 

Whose mandate is that?

 

i think it's just something that's become accepted. the umpire in question told me that fans come to see hits, not walks--and most of the umpires follow this rule.

[jjgman21]

i have a very good friend who's an umpire in the southern league. this person, who shall remain nameless for the time being, said that home plate umpires must call a different zone for A's farm players--they're too disciplined at the plate. in an effort to get them to swing, the umpires generally call a larger zone for A's hitters.

 

i wished they called a smaller zone for cubs hitters. talk about no organizational hitting philosophy, which is the most frustrating thing of all.

 

just thought I would note that the A's don't have an affilate in the southern league. their AA affiliate is Midland in the Texas League.

 

incidentally, an Eastern League umpire (Carolina League last year) helped me do my roof two weeks ago, and despite my prodding, he was pretty reluctant to admit that umpires treat certain players or teams differently, but you could tell just by his demeanor at my questions that umps do it all the time.

[Magnetic Curses]

i have a very good friend who's an umpire in the southern league. this person, who shall remain nameless for the time being, said that home plate umpires must call a different zone for A's farm players--they're too disciplined at the plate. in an effort to get them to swing, the umpires generally call a larger zone for A's hitters.

 

i wished they called a smaller zone for cubs hitters. talk about no organizational hitting philosophy, which is the most frustrating thing of all.

 

just thought I would note that the A's don't have an affilate in the southern league. their AA affiliate is Midland in the Texas League.

 

if the umpire in question had only called games in the southern league then you'd have a point.

[jjgman21]

i have a very good friend who's an umpire in the southern league. this person, who shall remain nameless for the time being, said that home plate umpires must call a different zone for A's farm players--they're too disciplined at the plate. in an effort to get them to swing, the umpires generally call a larger zone for A's hitters.

 

i wished they called a smaller zone for cubs hitters. talk about no organizational hitting philosophy, which is the most frustrating thing of all.

 

just thought I would note that the A's don't have an affilate in the southern league. their AA affiliate is Midland in the Texas League.

 

if the umpire in question had only called games in the southern league then you'd have a point.

 

most umps are assigned to a league. if you hadn't characterized him as a southern league ump, as opposed to some league floating ump, I wouldn't have brought it up.

[Magnetic Curses]

i have a very good friend who's an umpire in the southern league. this person, who shall remain nameless for the time being, said that home plate umpires must call a different zone for A's farm players--they're too disciplined at the plate. in an effort to get them to swing, the umpires generally call a larger zone for A's hitters.

 

i wished they called a smaller zone for cubs hitters. talk about no organizational hitting philosophy, which is the most frustrating thing of all.

 

just thought I would note that the A's don't have an affilate in the southern league. their AA affiliate is Midland in the Texas League.

 

if the umpire in question had only called games in the southern league then you'd have a point.

 

most umps are assigned to a league. if you hadn't characterized him as a southern league ump, as opposed to some league floating ump, I wouldn't have brought it up.

 

the umpire in question has been umping minor league games for four years, and didn't start in the southern league.

[Magnetic Curses]

just fyi, umpires are like ballplayers, they don't stay in one league forever.

[jjgman21]

just fyi, umpires are like ballplayers, they don't stay in one league forever.

 

most do unless promoted or demoted. these guys live on the road. they don't want to have to become familiar with new highways, new restuarants, new hotels, etc. just for the sake of a lateral move, ie. from one AA league to another AA league.

 

I'm sure some guys get put in leagues they don't want to be in, so they change later on. but the guy I know had his choice of AA leagues to go to, and I can't imagine he received any special treatment by being given this choice.

[Magnetic Curses]

just fyi, umpires are like ballplayers, they don't stay in one league forever.

 

most do unless promoted or demoted. these guys live on the road. they don't want to have to become familiar with new highways, new restuarants, new hotels, etc. just for the sake of a lateral move, ie. from one AA league to another AA league.

 

I'm sure some guys get put in leagues they don't want to be in, so they change later on. but the guy I know had his choice of AA leagues to go to, and I can't imagine he received any special treatment by being given this choice.

 

who's talking about lateral moves? i'm talking about umpires fresh out of umpire school starting out in rookie ball and progressing up until they either hit the big leagues or top out somewhere along the way. you don't just hit the southern league after you graduate.

[jjgman21]

just fyi, umpires are like ballplayers, they don't stay in one league forever.

 

most do unless promoted or demoted. these guys live on the road. they don't want to have to become familiar with new highways, new restuarants, new hotels, etc. just for the sake of a lateral move, ie. from one AA league to another AA league.

 

I'm sure some guys get put in leagues they don't want to be in, so they change later on. but the guy I know had his choice of AA leagues to go to, and I can't imagine he received any special treatment by being given this choice.

 

who's talking about lateral moves? i'm talking about umpires fresh out of umpire school starting out in rookie ball and progressing up until they either hit the big leagues or top out somewhere along the way. you don't just hit the southern league after you graduate.

 

again you weren't clear in your post, but I guess I should have recognized your FYI post was probably tangential to the rest of the discussion.

 

with that said, you were talking about a lateral move

 

the umpire in question has been umping minor league games for four years, and didn't start in the southern league.

 

combined with the comments about the Texas league, it seems you were talking about a lateral move.

 

I am well aware of minor league umps moving up through the ranks, hence....

 

an Eastern League umpire (Carolina League last year) helped me do my roof

 

and

 

most do unless promoted or demoted

 

look, your first comment was specious, so I pointed it out. I could have taken a sarcastic tone and said you were full of it, but considering you are unlikely to make things up around here, I didn't. the least you could have done is shown the same respect and just cleared up the misperception instead of starting a pissing match.

[goonys evil twin]

with that said, you were talking about a lateral move

 

the umpire in question has been umping minor league games for four years, and didn't start in the southern league.

 

combined with the comments about the Texas league, it seems you were talking about a lateral move.

 

I thought you were the one who brought up the Texas league, and AA in general. I don't think he brought up anything about lateral moves. But when I first read it, I assumed he was talking about an A's team in the Southern League.

[jjgman21]

with that said, you were talking about a lateral move

 

the umpire in question has been umping minor league games for four years, and didn't start in the southern league.

 

combined with the comments about the Texas league, it seems you were talking about a lateral move.

 

I thought you were the one who brought up the Texas league, and AA in general. I don't think he brought up anything about lateral moves. But when I first read it, I assumed he was talking about an A's team in the Southern League.

 

I'll repeat

 

but I guess I should have recognized your FYI post was probably tangential to the rest of the discussion.

 

this comment made me think he was saying that lateral moves between the same level happen all the time.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm really confused now, can't tell who is quoting whom.