While there is truth to what you say, I still contend that a pitcher's win total is affected more by other variables than say his ERA. For example, a pitcher can pitch a shutout most of the game, yet lose because he got no run support. Remember Clement? Additionally, a pitcher can pitch lousy, but have a St. Louis type of offense and come away with the win. Or, a pitcher can lose a game by defensive snafus. On and on. In contrast, a pitcher's ability to get the ball over the plate, or get a high amount of strikeouts, or be tough to hit against has few (if any) outside factors other than the pure ability of the pitcher. I'd take a 15-13 pitcher with a 2.87 ERA any day as opposed to a 21-10 pitcher with a 3.89 ERA. Ken