CuseCubFan69

As you've seen the Cubs can whine and losing brings that out a lot more, as does the manager. I just don't think it's that black and white as whiniest or garbage. Prior, Z, Wood have had success all throughout their careers. Now, team wise, they are not having that success. It wears on them...it has too. Now I'm sure they would want some impact players out there as we all would. My thoughts in this thread hasn't been that Barrett stinks, not at all. It's when the pitcher/catcher connection breaks down what do you do next?

It may be speculation, but it isn't idle. There is no definitive way to know it, but that doesn't make it unworthy of exploring. Numbers are a good guide, not a be all and end all. If there's no definitive way of knowing, why bother exploring it? If there's no answer, there's no use for the question. What are you going to do? Have Bruce Miles ask Prior if he is afraid to pitch to Barrett? Please, it's a waste of time. You're not much on philosophy, are you? When you are using it as an arguement against a player without any proof that it is actually true I do have a bit of a problem with it. Have you ever heard one of the Cubs pitchers in the last two years say that they don't like to throw to Michael or that his defensive abilities sometimes worries them and decreases their effectiveness? I asked what if a pitching staff doesn't like to throw to a catcher even though he can hit. I'll change it to read that. Now, what would you do as a GM? I never said the Cub pitchers didn't like throwing to Barrett.

Of course it's idle speculation. We, the fans, do not know what goes on behind the scenes. When you look at numbers how does that tell you they couldn't have been better given different circumstances? My big question is how the Cub pitchers react and feel about Barrett as their catcher. I don't care to see him traded but if the Cubs do move him would this be a reason why? I also wouldn't say afraid but not thinking about pitching like they should be doing. say you're a GM and you have been told by your staff that they do not like pitching to a certain catcher. Now please realize this doesn't pertain to Barrett as we both don't know how the Cub pitchers feel. What would you do? You see IMB...this is my question and I just tied it into this Barrett thread. If the Cubs have...statistically speaking...above average players like Barrett at every position I'd be thrilled.

I can't argue with that. What I can ask is what if the Cubs pitchers say to themselves..."Oh crap, Barretts my catcher today."? How do you deal with that?

I like his bat and you're right it is better than average while his D is average...maybe below average. Obviously, his bat keeps him as the main starter as it should with Blanco being the other choice.

I think you, and all the others dogging Barrett, are the ones going to extremes. Those of us that are addressing the need for balance, are acknowledging that Barrett has his pluses and minuses. He's a top line offensive catcher, and just average defensively. Overall, with Blanco and Barrett, the Cubs are getting top line offense out of catcher (2nd in NL in OBP and OPS), and above average defense. That's pretty good balance. Those of you ripping Barrett to shreds and begging for a replacement to solidify up the middle defense are completely ignoring offense. Because quite frankly there is no realistic option to significantly upgrade the Cubs overall catching defense without significantly decreasing their offensive production, thus, throwing off the balance. I can't believe I have to fall on the side of Barrett defense. I never liked his acquisition. But the fact is catcher is not a trouble spot on the Cubs, and the chances of upgrading there are slim to none. Other problems are far more pressing, and much easier to address. I agree 100% that the Cubs have more pressing needs than at catcher. Have you seen anything that I have wrote that suggests otherwise? I have said what I like from a catcher and if he gives more in any area that is wonderful. I wonder what the Cub pitchers think of pitching to Barrett...does that mean I want him traded? No. But, everytime I look at a comment someone writes that I want Barrett traded and not once have I said that.

boston's done all right with some pretty shaky defense up the middle. And Atlanta has done well being solid there. they're also 3rd in the NL in runs and 6th in the NL in era. are you saying their defense at c, 2b, ss and cf is a bigger reason for their success than their hitting and pitching? seattle has the fewest errors in mlb...they must be winning their division by 25 games. Again with extremes. It's a balance that needs to be addressed and if you tell me that if you have two exact teams only one has worse defensive players up the middle that that team would be better? Also, errors are objective...score keepers are not reliable in what I would look at. Also, If you have pitchers giving up missles it doesn't matter who have out there. Balance is needed..good balance and solid up the middle Defense is always a good place to start. Look at the dominate 70 Red teams...yeah they could hit but they were also awesome up the middle. of course you'd rather have the team that's solid defensively up the middle. but no team is good-great at everything...and, for me, in a fantasy draft of team skills, good d up the middle would be pretty low on my draft board. if you can show me a replacement for barrett that is a perfect balance of offense and defense, maybe i'd want him. but i don't know who that is. Again...I am not saying I want Barrett gone. Barrett offensively helps hide the Cubs weaknesses in other offensive areas. This also isn't fantasy baseball. If you put teams on paper and play the games that way sure but there are many variables that go into building a team. I'm not into the chemistry thing but I am into building a dominate team that can win and continue winning. If you add ARod/SS, Roberts/2B, Manny Ramirez/LF to the Cubs then the catcher position doesn't need to be so offensive and the plus/minus at catcher changes and comes into play. If the Cubs can win with Barrett continuing to be their catcher then it works. If not, why? Again, I am not blaming Barrett but he is one of the pieces that you would have to look at. I just do not believe that extremes make a team dominate. I like a balance and when things happen like the power hitting is shut down a little small ball. Pitchers duel a guy makes a diving catch or rips a ball into the stands. A 8-8 game and see what the flow of the game develops or do I need to breakup that flow with a stolen base or drag bunt. Yeah, it's a slugfest but did the wind change and start blowing in? You see, these are the things I am looking at that along with the numbers that a player brings to the table. Versatile moves and options. Hendry has to have a manager that can do this and he has to supply the players that can execute them.

boston's done all right with some pretty shaky defense up the middle. And Atlanta has done well being solid there. they're also 3rd in the NL in runs and 6th in the NL in era. are you saying their defense at c, 2b, ss and cf is a bigger reason for their success than their hitting and pitching? seattle has the fewest errors in mlb...they must be winning their division by 25 games. Again with extremes. It's a balance that needs to be addressed and if you tell me that if you have two exact teams only one has worse defensive players up the middle that that team would be better? Also, errors are objective...score keepers are not reliable in what I would look at. Also, If you have pitchers giving up missles it doesn't matter who have out there. Balance is needed..good balance and solid up the middle Defense is always a good place to start. Look at the dominate 70 Red teams...yeah they could hit but they were also awesome up the middle.

Because Bobby Cox always picks one pitcher that will work with the backup catcher to get the regular guy rest. Maddux didn't need any assistance calling a game, didn't have pitches that were particularly hard to catch and prevented runs to the extent that the offense could take a hit and still leave the team with a good chance to win. That and he needed a catcher who could throw better than Javy & Barrett. So a good staff could use a good defensive catcher? Do you think the Cubs have a good staff? That's not the point. If you can find a great defensive catcher that puts up numbers close to what Barrett puts up then I would be all for getting him. The chances are you aren't going to be able to find that, though, and Barrett provides too much to the offense to get some no bat defensive catcher. Of course you would like a catcher like that...all the teams in MLB would. And why is nobat/good D always grouped together? How about average bat and good D. I just don't understand the extremes. Barrett has his plus/minuses like every player and my point for the 100th time is that the Cubs have to continue to look at that...as they do any player..and figure out what is the best thing for the team. Also, again....how do the Cub pitchers, mainly the starters, feel about Barrett? We do not know, only the players know. I am not saying they don't like him nor am I saying they do.

boston's done all right with some pretty shaky defense up the middle. And Atlanta has done well being solid there. If you can do well without it or with it doesn't it mean it's really not of the utmost importance? I think it depends on the makeup of the team. If you can put studs all over the field or have huge hitting strengths to overcompenate sure. But, Boston didn't start winning until they got Cabera or at least showed improvement. Nomars a better hitter than Cabera is and Epstein decided to go in a more defensive mode Also, it's been mentioned by Goony that Variteck calls a heck of a game so Boston is not near as weak up the middle as some may think.

boston's done all right with some pretty shaky defense up the middle. And Atlanta has done well being solid there.

Because Bobby Cox always picks one pitcher that will work with the backup catcher to get the regular guy rest. Maddux didn't need any assistance calling a game, didn't have pitches that were particularly hard to catch and prevented runs to the extent that the offense could take a hit and still leave the team with a good chance to win. That and he needed a catcher who could throw better than Javy & Barrett. So a good staff could use a good defensive catcher? Do you think the Cubs have a good staff?

So if the Cubs get these player it makes for a very versatile productive bench. Add to that if the Cubs resign Nomar who can fill in a 3rd and Cedeno who can fill in at SS and 2B. Does this boost Theriot to AAA and if needed he comes up then? Fontenot can also play 2nd so if the Cubs keep Walker...which I doubt, that would push Cedeno to the bench or AAA and Theriot where?

I have never seen a player get under your skin like Neifi does. I like your choices...how did Mabry do this year? Mabry was okay, .300/.430 OBP/SLG, but his career marks are better. I almost hesitated to put him on the list. And yes, I think I'm going to have to go on a "Say No to Neifi" campaign this offseason. If it's between Perez and Baker....I'll take Perez in a heartbeat. Do any of these players play 3rd/1st and hit left handed...as in a good hitting left handed, not a Macias hit left handed?

Sometimes it takes awhile for that trust to happen and sometimes some pitchers and catchers just don't see eye to eye. Look at Maddux. He has pitched for years with the second string catchers. Why?

I have never seen a player get under your skin like Neifi does. I like your choices...how did Mabry do this year?

I'd take him if Arizona adds Quentin to the deal and the Cubs pay all of Gonzo's salary. Wait, you want the Cubs to pay $11m for a guy who probably won't have much more than an 800 OPS and has a good chance to be sub 800? I look at it as as investment in Quentin. If the Cubs can not use this cash to get an impact hitter I'd like to see them get a quality young hitter then. This way the Cubs don't give up a lot in prospects and can move some pitchers for another need.

This is why I like the catcher to be the coach on the field. Does Barrett notice these things? Yeah, the coaches and manager are suppose to see what's going on but having a catcher that can take care and recognize things on the field, during the flow of the game, are very important IMO. He sees the release point better than anyone. He sees the movement better then anyone. Can he commute this to the pitcher? Does he have the respect from the staff to do so?

If Baker wins...that's pretty funny. Interesting trade...Ramirez for Beltran. I wonder how much the Mets or Red Sox would pay to move those players to another team?

I'd take him if Arizona adds Quentin to the deal and the Cubs pay all of Gonzo's salary.

Actually, no. I'm not making that assumption. What I'm assuming is that pitchers are professionals and that if they've made the major leagues they no how to go about their job. If a catcher is so bad that you're worried on every pitch whether he is going to catch it or not, then that person shouldn't ever be catching. Barrett is nowhere near that bad. He's adequate. He has four passed balls this year in just over 930 innings. Blanco has two passed balls in just under 370 innings. Blanco's ratio is actually worse. In fact, Barrett is actually on the low end as far as number of passed balls when you look at catchers who have caught 800 innings this season. I'll admit, his throwing does leave a bit to be desired, but there are a lot of catchers that don't throw well. Kendall, V. Martinez, and Lieberthal have been as bad, if not worse, at throwing out base-runners. Zaun, Lo Duca, Vartiez, and Pierzynski haven't been much better. Sure, a certain level of comfort comes with having a defensively-gifted catcher. A certain level of comfort also comes knowing that you have one less weak spot in the lineup when Barrett is playing. I think his mistakes get magnified on this board, since most of us see him play more than other catchers around the league. However, I'd bet that at worst he's probably middle of the pack or (more likely) just slightly below that when compared to other starting catchers at the major league level. Again, I am not saying I don't want Barrett to be the Cubs catcher. The two points I am making or trying to make are that: A: Does Barrett have an effect on the Cub pitchers mentally when they pitch. It's not that the pitchers may worry about him catching the ball all the time but if it even enters their thoughts. Professional yes but they are not perfect. B: The plus/minus of a catchers offensive/defensive and leadership abilities and how they effect the team. As I've said many times that Barrett hits well enough to keep himself in the lineup and since the Cubs have too many holes in their offense it doesn't make sense to trade him unless it's a deal that can improve the team.

I put Tims idea about the Williams for Quentin trade in the transactions in the Arizona thread.

Tims suggestion of Williams for Quentin is very interesting. Both teams are giving up a quality young player. This is why Hendry has built up the arms race to take advantage of oppurtunites like this.

That's right.....wasn't Campanis starting to lose his mind when Baker was there? That's advice I'd put to use.

Do you really think that Hendry would sell high on this one? Williams for Carlos Quentin, baby! Very interesting....Who do you slide into Williams slot?