Jehrico

We need to lock this thread and ban all future posters who make any new similar threads.

Okay. From 1945 (the end of WWII) to 2007, there were 247 major league players who made their debut in their age 27 season and then got at least 1 plate appearance the next season. In their debut season, those players averaged a .291 wOBA; in the next season, those players averaged a .302 wOBA. (.338 is right about league average.) Theriot had a .302 wOBA last season. He seems exceedingly typical of the sort of player that makes their debut at age 27, by that standard. I wouldn't expect a big improvement out of Theriot this season based on this (admittedly slapped together) bit of trivia. (Caveats: I didn't adjust for park, and I did a lazy age calculation rather than figure out seasonal age. You could probably do a better study of the issue than what I've done here, but I think this suffices for my purposes.) Tell me if I'm wrong here, but this sounds like you're downplaying Theriot's worth based on historical analysis of other players who made their debut at age 27. Theriot made his debut at 25. His first (and so far only) full year was his age 27 year, which puts him in a significantly different category. That said, I'm still in favor of Cedeno over Theriot when the time to make that decision comes. But that's because Cedeno is better, not because Theriot is bad. I know it's not nearly the same thing, but this post made me think of all of the old "Pie will be terrible, look at Corey Patterson" posts we've seen over the last couple of years.

Did you just call him a Tranny? :lol:

No offense, but the debate has gone off-topic. While you're right that it's clearly named, the last time I checked the thread wasn't named Cedeno vs. Theriot. Indeed, it is still named "Is it time to make Cedeno a starter?" If you want to debate Cedeno vs. Theriot, then make a thread called Cedeno vs. Theriot. It's tiresome reading the same pointless arguments in multiple threads and derailing otherwise good discussions into the same entrenched positions over and over again. The discussion here is about Cedeno starting/playing most games... and I think he should. I don't care whether he plays 2B or SS all that much. I'd prefer that he play SS, but I'm not going to whine if he starts at 2B instead. And, as I've said repeatedly in this thread, the issue is perhaps more about Cedeno vs. Fontenot than it is Cedeno vs. Theriot. But, no one wants to discuss that. They'd rather rehash old, tired arguments. actually it's just looking ahead to when soriano is back healthy and playing nearly every day. unless the cubs go to a softball lineup and play a roving fielder, cedeno "starting regularly" means cedeno supplanting one of the current starters. If the AL can just up and make up a position one day with the DH, why can't we just up and add a 4th outfielder like you mentioned? :tomato: :old_givebeer:

He's got a ways to catch Cedeno's .957. doesn't matter... you don't bench a guy OPS'ing .893. But you bench a guy OPSing .957? Neat. bench players don't get benched, they get returned to the spot they were already occupying. I'm a little late adding to this conversation, but here's my $0.02... I agree and disagree. You don't bench a starter OPS'ing .893 just because you have a guy on the bench OPSing higher in fewer at bats (see Dusty starting Todd Hollandsworth his second year with us). You do it because the guy on the bench is younger, better, and has higher potential.

Correct. The power that Cedeno has shown thus far makes him the clear choice. Besides the bomb he hit tonight, he has hit some really deep doubles that Theriot can only dream about doing, and hasn't even come close to doing in twice as many PAs. Eff Theriot's .893 OPS right now I hope to see you guys carrying on this same argument in August/early September. Doubt it. It would be a miracle if both of them are puting up competing numbers by then. Hell, it'll be a miracle if one of them is still putting up awesome numbers then. Dude, you're talking to a Cubs fan. Of course they'll both still be producing like that at the end of the year. :pig:

Didn't Sabean already publicly put him on the market, stating that he wanted some bats in exchange? Granted, that was before Zito began another year as Sucky Zito, but still...Sabean's already exposed himself as being open to it, depending on if the right deal comes around. Sabean isn't known as a fleecer like Beane, or as unreasonable like TB.

Add to that that our second best bat didn't contribute much of anything until here recently either.

Correct. The power that Cedeno has shown thus far makes him the clear choice. Besides the bomb he hit tonight, he has hit some really deep doubles that Theriot can only dream about doing, and hasn't even come close to doing in twice as many PAs. Eff Theriot's .893 OPS right now I hope to see you guys carrying on this same argument in August/early September.

Wow... :shock:

I want to treat 2004 the way Germany treats the 30's/40's. "NOTHING HAPPENED! WE WERE ON VACATION!" Family Guy reference aside, I can't believe that group of players didn't dominate the league. Sosa, Alou, Lee, Nomar, Ramirez, Barrett, Walker, Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Clement, Maddux. How does that happen? Dusty. 'nuff said.

how are we doing against non-pirate pitching? Every team plays the dregs of the league, don't they? The Pirates are 7-5 in games against anyone except us. I really don't think they're going to be bottom feeders this year, they'll end up slightly below mediocrity. Hopefully, if they don't, it'll be because we keep owning them. We're a couple of extra-inning games and another one run game away (one which they should have won by all means) from being 3-3 against them instead of 6-0.

The pirates are by no stretch of the imagination good...but am I the only one that sees them crawling out of the cellar this year and maybe even reaching lower mediocrity?

Did anyone else notice that LaRussa has Izturis hitting 9th behind Braden Looper today? He must be going for that 2nd leadoff hitter... :lol:

Aramis AND Soriano. We're tearing it up offensively with two of our biggest three bats stinking it up. i'm thinking that derosa will be hard pressed to keep up that .321/.426/.571 line, and theriot may not finish with an .800 OPS. Exactly why it's important that we're getting what we're getting without our big bats. It's looking somewhat realistic to keep up a pace similar to what we're on as a team. If our starting pitching gets back to form, our offense is more than good enough. Z should be good for 20 this year.

Aramis AND Soriano. We're tearing it up offensively with two of our biggest three bats stinking it up.

Big props to GP.

Not always. Racism is a form of ignorance. Ignorant people tend to seek and bask in the limelight. I think sometimes we put them in the spotlight and they revel in it rather than get embarrassed. Case in point: William Ligue Jr, knew he was going to be arrested and put on national television for rushing Gamboa as he called someone he knew on his cellphone before he did it and told them to watch the TV (granted, that's not racism, but that is ignorance looking for attention, and it doesn't matter that the attention is negative). I think there's a difference between petty ignorant racism that should be ignored so as not to give it the attention it wants, and real racism that helps propagate negative stereotypes that needs to be snuffed out. I was really liked Fukudome's statement on the situation. I thought he made a strong, pointed statement against the t-shirts, but didn't give off a Rosie-ODonnell-esque-national-call-for-outrage-because-no-one-should-ever-be-offended-by-anything type of attitude at all. He hit it with a hammer pretty gracefully, imo.

How much money total have the Dodgers set aside for Jones and Pierre? Considering Andruw's (and Pierre's) year last year, I'd be real worried right about now.

I don't think I was being demeaning. Look at some of the responses to my posts. Now that is demeaning. "Extending my logic" like that is kind of a cheat. I can just reply as such: let's all go back to the 1883 or what have you version of baseball. That's the only "real" form. Otherwise it's just like pro wrestling. You get the drift. Anything updated from 19th century baseball = fake baseball. It's BS because... you say so? Only you have the One True Vision for baseball? Hmm. And that is endlessly fascinating stuff. The Rangers-Blue Jays extra innings game I watched was more entertaining than that. Had to bring in some personal jab into this, eh? Falling back on that old crutch? Well, if it's not 19th century pure baseball to me than it's just Arena League crap to me as well. Hell, it also became more Arena League when they lowered the mound and such. That argument isn't going to work. It's too easily turned back upon you. Frank Thomas? Huh. Except that's a lie and a myth. What chess match? Most of you just make this all up with moves that aren't interesting, diverting, or anything more than utterly routine. The chess match aspect that doesn't actually exist anywhere but in people's imaginations? Ah yes, that double switch, that's like watching Deep Blue vs. Kasparov, I'm just stunned at the amount of strategy going on there. You did nothing more in that entire post other than say that you think your opinions are better than everyone elses. You could have just said that in seven words and saved yourself all of the hassle.

That's some ugly equivocation. Bad-hitting MI or Cs are nowhere near the level of pitchers. Not really. There's plenty of back up MIFs and Cs that can barely hit 200-220. There's plenty of pitchers that can hit at least .230 out there.

It isn't that, it is the fact we like the chess match of the NL, where overall talent is important and the manager plays a hand in the games outcome, compared to the the AL that demands barely anything out of the manager and reduces one player to knowing only one skill. Most "chess match" decisions in baseball are 51/49 type decisions. There are very few, if any, game-changing decisions based on matchups. I wasn't referring to matchups. I was referring to when it's the 12th inning, and you're down to your next to last or last reliever or you have no pinch hitters left because of the quick double switches that were pulled during the 7th-9th innings while the game is looking like one that could possibly go 18+.

Nevermind...

I'm catching up via sportsline's gamecenter and this thread...is Lilly looking like the Lilly of old, or are the Reds just that bad today?