Transmogrified Tiger

http://www.sabr.org

Look at Castillo and Pierre's numbers since they've been together. When one does well, the other does poorly, and vice versa. Their OPS's are almost a perfect ratio.

There's a difference between ANY prospect and the 4 best, 2 days after trading your only other close to the majors talent. The Cubs create a hole in the rotation (and backup in the rotation), and still haven't filled their biggest hole. Now they have $12M less to fill them with. sign clemens for a year. :D Hell, we don't need 5 aces - look who the cardinals had at the back of their rotation the last couple of years. Yea, it may hurt long-term, but do you really think any of those four are going to be irreplaceable long-term? Do you think a team that feels compelled to trade a 2.5 player like Walker is going to see the value of young players? With this management, go for it now. Perhaps we can get some A ball arms in return. That's why I'm torn. I wouldn't be upset about that deal. But it wouldn't put this team over the top. I think it would Raw - it would almost certainly put the cubs in the playoffs and I'd take my chances from there. Ok, we still need healthy pitching but that is a must in any scenario. That's a pretty good and balanced lineup. Tejada isn't dunn but with a producer 1-8, you are going to score some runs. I would go: Pierre Walker Lee Ramirez Tejada Bradley Murton Barrett How are you going to get Bradley or Floyd if you trade Williams, Pie, Hill, and Cedeno for Tejada? And what do you do about the rotation?

Exactly. Like it or not, a SS with an .840 OPS is more valuable than an OF 100 points higher. That's the way the market works. Supply and demand. That being said, I'm on the fence on trading Williams, Pie, Hill and Cedeno for him. Funny, if the Cubs still had Pinto and Nolasco, that decision isn't as hard. I probably wouldn't trade that much though. I really don't know how we could say that we were in better shape to win both short-term and long if we traded all 4 for Tejada. We didn't. Well you and I didn't, but several here are making the claim for that.

How are you going to get Bradley or Floyd if you trade Williams, Pie, Hill, and Cedeno for Tejada? And what do you do about the rotation?

Exactly. Like it or not, a SS with an .840 OPS is more valuable than an OF 100 points higher. That's the way the market works. Supply and demand. That being said, I'm on the fence on trading Williams, Pie, Hill and Cedeno for him. Funny, if the Cubs still had Pinto and Nolasco, that decision isn't as hard. I probably wouldn't trade that much though. I really don't know how we could say that we were in better shape to win both short-term and long if we traded all 4 for Tejada.

Are you reading this thread at all? IMO he's in shock that Walker is even being compared to Tejada. Walkers a nice player and underappreciated but I have Tejada in the same class a Abreu and Dunn and Walker is far below that IMO. I see the numbers that have been thrown out there and having a 300/35 HR guy at SS is a luxury I would like the Cubs to have. We just differ on how we would make this team better in this case. Tejada isn't even close to Abreu and Dunn. Both those guys are consistently over a 900 OPS, Abreu 1000. Tejada in his best year in his prime couldn't get to 900. I consider defense too CPatt...not just hitting. Tejada is an average defender, maybe even slightly below average.

Are you reading this thread at all? IMO he's in shock that Walker is even being compared to Tejada. Walkers a nice player and underappreciated but I have Tejada in the same class a Abreu and Dunn and Walker is far below that IMO. I see the numbers that have been thrown out there and having a 300/35 HR guy at SS is a luxury I would like the Cubs to have. We just differ on how we would make this team better in this case. Tejada isn't even close to Abreu and Dunn. Both those guys are consistently over a 900 OPS, Abreu 1000. Tejada in his best year in his prime couldn't get to 900.

People, it's not about Walker, he was just an example of production. Take Marcus Giles instead. No one is proposing that we give up Williams, Pie, Hill, Cedeno for him, or any package even close to that.

Are you reading this thread at all?

NO ONE IS SAYING THIS

Tejada last year: 304/.349/.515/.864 Walker last year: .305/.355/.474/.829 Try RBI's and HR's. Selective use of numbers is meaningless. NO ONE in baseball would try to equate Todd Walker being the equal to Tejada. Selective use of numbers? Seriously? I'm not saying they are equals, I'm using Walker to prove the point that Tejada isn't worth giving away half the valuable commodities in the system.

Because he isn't really that great of an offensive player. We got slightly less production from Walker last year that we would probably get from Tejada this year. Just because he plays a positon were offense is scarce doesn't mean we should overpay for him, especially if it is possible to upgrade more cheaply at another position. What were his numbers last year? No way is he comparable to Walker. I was just surprised to see that Tejada has never had an OPS over .900. HIs OPS last year was .864. My point is this: Tejada and Mench > Cedeno and Abreu Who's left to trade for Mench? Let's assume the Rangers take a bunch of prospects further away like Dopirak, Harvey, EPatt, Gallagher, whatever. The real comparison is: Tejada+Mench+Rusch+inability to make any moves in the near future vs. Cedeno+Abreu+Williams+not ravaging your farm system

Because he isn't really that great of an offensive player. We got slightly less production from Walker last year that we would probably get from Tejada this year. Just because he plays a positon were offense is scarce doesn't mean we should overpay for him, especially if it is possible to upgrade more cheaply at another position. What were his numbers last year? No way is he comparable to Walker. Tejada last year: 304/.349/.515/.864 Walker last year: .305/.355/.474/.829

I'd much rather use a bunch of prospects for Abreu, who consistently bests Tejada in OBP by 50-60 points. But for just about any one player, that type of package is not going to help you because of the state of the franchise as it is. We'd get the star, but he's not going to overcome the deficiencies you've created in acquiring him, and that holds especially true for Tejada considering his contract, age, and production.

the farm system doesn't possess any can't miss prospects, sorry, I trade them for Tejada. That doesn't mean you trade ALL of them. Look at my first post, we'd be forced into Rusch in the rotation, with no one nearing the Majors on the farm as a SP. We still wouldn't have a RF, and we'd have nothing left to get one with, unless we trade Walker, which opens up another hole.

No way. We'd cripple ourselves. In what way? Cedeno isn't going to play SS and he doesn't have the bat for second IMO. Pierre is going to sign a 3 or 4 year deal with the Cubs so that gets rid of Pie. The pitchers would hurt but they might be gone for a Dunn or Abreu anyway so why not get a bat that covers a postion that most teams don't have one? We still need a RF, and there aren't any good ones out there. What do we have left to trade at this point? After the Pierre trade and this, there's nothing even remotely close to Major League ready that's of any worth. It also rids you of any rotation depth you have. Now you're looking at Prior, Z, Wood, Maddux, Rusch, and Wellemeyer is the only starter that could step in unless you're JC. We've already dealt the top two AA arms, so Ryu, who isn't a great prospect is the best player that's closest to the bigs. Making that deal you settle SS, but you no longer have any trading chips to improve the team, and the only thing you get is a 30 year old average defensive SS that'll hit .350/.500 at 12.5 million per for 4 years. Terrible idea for the short and long-term. If there aren't any good RF, why not get a SS who produces like a RF? Then you can afford to go after one of those not so good RF. In Free Agency there isn't, and Tejada isn't a great hitter compared to other OF's. Tejada is a good player, don't get me wrong, but he's leaving his prime, has a hefty but manageable contract, and doesn't produce enough to justify selling the farm to acquire.

No way. We'd cripple ourselves. In what way? Cedeno isn't going to play SS and he doesn't have the bat for second IMO. Pierre is going to sign a 3 or 4 year deal with the Cubs so that gets rid of Pie. The pitchers would hurt but they might be gone for a Dunn or Abreu anyway so why not get a bat that covers a postion that most teams don't have one? We still need a RF, and there aren't any good ones out there. What do we have left to trade at this point? After the Pierre trade and this, there's nothing even remotely close to Major League ready that's of any worth. It also rids you of any rotation depth you have. Now you're looking at Prior, Z, Wood, Maddux, Rusch, and Wellemeyer is the only starter that could step in unless you're JC. We've already dealt the top two AA arms, so Ryu, who isn't a great prospect is the best player that's closest to the bigs. Making that deal you settle SS, but you no longer have any trading chips to improve the team, and the only thing you get is a 30 year old average defensive SS that'll hit .350/.500 at 12.5 million per for 4 years. Terrible idea for the short and long-term.

No way. We'd cripple ourselves.

No. Just to help analyze the situation, forget about the name here. While his contract isn't a burden, it's certainly isn't a bargain. 4/50 to put up .350/.500 and is average at best defensively at SS, and he turns 30 early next year. We have a hole there, and I'd certainly welcome Tejada's production, but let's not get carried away. This isn't the same as the Cabrera rumor, even though it's more real.

I care very much what his percentage is. If he steals 65 bases and gets caught 50 times, then his basestealing "threat" is hurting the team with his running.

Right now we have Z, Prior, Maddux, Wood, Williams, Rusch, Hill, and maybe even Wellemeyer for 5 rotation spots. We aren't hurting for SPs. Could we stand to add one? Possibly, but our outfield is a much greater concern at this point. The idea is to add both Floyd and Bradley. Neither are iron men, that way Murton gets a good bit of at bats if they need a stint on the DL or need days off, plus he platoons with Floyd in LF. Bradley plays RF.

Murton is going to be a strength of our team, not a weekness. No use wasting more trading chips and payroll on a lesser OF than Murton. Use that money where it is really needed, a SP. And I really wouldn't say it that way. We really do not have ALL that many weeknesses in our Line-up. All we are really lacking is a power OF for RF and a good SP. Floyd and Bradley are both superior to Murton. But will they perform better than Murton next year? I don't think so. We need a 3rd starter much more than we need to gamble on someone else doing better than Murton. One of them in RF is fine, but let the kid play. Yes, both Floyd and Bradley are better bets to produce better than Murton, and to produce well enough to be a corner OF. Murton is the gamble, not Floyd or Bradley.

Murton is going to be a strength of our team, not a weekness. No use wasting more trading chips and payroll on a lesser OF than Murton. Use that money where it is really needed, a SP. And I really wouldn't say it that way. We really do not have ALL that many weeknesses in our Line-up. All we are really lacking is a power OF for RF and a good SP. Floyd and Bradley are both superior to Murton.

My desire to get Coco Crisp went out the window with the Pierre trade.