XZero771679666304

I think a lot of members must be out drowning the sorrow tonight. Not too many people in this thread.

I'd like to hear McCarver and Madden in a booth together......or not.

I thought the same thing. Me too. I had to crank the brightness up.

I think he needs the Bonds treatment.

So they can separate their shoulder. And it actually gets you to the bag slower. I know and it increases injuries big time. I just wonder if coaches actually tell the players that.

So they can separate their shoulder. And it actually gets you to the bag slower.

Why do players dive into first? Geez.

I think that definately helped derail his career. All a pitcher had to do was throw a curve on the outside part of the place and Sosa couldn't touch it. Definitely. Other than the possible roids, the biggest catalyst in his offensive explosion was that he learned to work the outer half and hit the opposite way. After the beaning, he was scared to death of the plate, and started flailing at outside pitches instead of stepping into and driving them.

I'm betting yes. I'll bet there are, but I'll also be there aren't too many other contending teams that have been beset by so many injuries to key players in recent years. It's never Neifi or Wuertz or some one unimportant. It's Prior, Wood, Sosa, Ramirez, Lee, Borowski, Nomar...and usually many concurrently. If you can find another recent team with similar circumstances, I challenge you to do so.

Have Thanksgiving Dinner. ..ok, that was mean. I'm sorry. That was very good. Personally, I would have gone for "open Christmas presents", but that was very well played.

No, they aren't the 2004 Cubs. But they are very similar. Week offense, with no patience, relying on pitching to carry them through. True, but on paper that offense looked devastating. Walker, Sosa, Alou, Ramirez, Lee, Patterson (before he fell of the earth).... But that's why they play the games.

I've been around here longer than you. Of your opponents, only CIN is better than 7th in the NL in runs scored. Chicken or the egg? Ausmus was the best hitter on the team after the break last year. Everett there for his glove, obviously, but his bat was unusually bad last year. I don’t think Everett hits this was all season, but Ausmus could outperform his norm, esp. if takes off where last season ended. So far he has. And I don’t think the ‘Stros will end up 3rd in the NL in runs. I was simply pointing out that this team has more than Berkman and Ensberg hitting. Either way, this is a much better offensive team to this point than what it was last year. First isn't a given, second almost certainly is. Cards have a more balanced rotation ,esp in the back end. But they, and nobody else in the majors can match a 1-2-3 of Oswalt, Clemens and Pettitte. Not to mention the fact that Rodriguez and Buckholtz have looked good so far. As is the same with some of the Cubs young arms, who knows what they’ll do over the course of a season? But if Clemens comes back, only a fool would argue that the Cubs or Cards can match that rotaion. I could tell you Maddux will start pitching like last year soon. Who’s right? Neither of us really know, pretty stupid statement to make. Against weaker hitting teams Stop. Rewind. Play. Who knows what those guys will do or how long they will be able to do it. You can’t assume they will give you ANYTHING at this point. How long has that happened, for like 3 consecutive months? Stop. Rewind. Play. Also, who is this coming from, the people inside the Cubs organization? They have always been so honest and forthcoming regarding Woods and Prior’s injury status. In your little world. Wow, that was one of the biggest displays of uninformed homerism I have ever seen. Wood had been healthy for a stretch of YEARS. Many of the reports are coming from OUTSIDE SOURCES. Wood, Prior and Z when healthy are every bit as good as your rotation. If Roger doesn't come back, your rotation is average, if that. Compare Pettitte's 2005 numbers to the rest of his career. Total aberration. A stupid statement to make would be to say you can expect those numbers again, or anything close to those numbers. Prior to last year, Pettitte had been a good pitcher on great teams, nothing more. And I don't think anyone here expects Maddux to maintain his pace. But if you believe that a Clemens/Pettitte/Oswalt 1-2-3 is better than anyone else's, you obviously are expecting Andy to peform like he only has once in his entire career. And as for what to expect out of out returning pitchers, what can you really expect out of Clemens, if he comes back? He is great, but he is 43 and clearly wore down late last year. Roger is 43. Father time is coming for the Rajah, as it has come for Bonds. Sure Clemens was awsome last year, but you can look to Bonds to see how quicky a dominant player can hit the wall. I think he knows this, and that's why is going to stay retired. And if he does come back you better believe that if Epstein or the Boss throw a ton of money at him, Houston will be in his rear view. Because you know Drayton isn't going to be paying him what he did last year again. One thing Roger has proven time and time again is that Roger will do what is best for Roger. And the Cubs ERA is due to weaker opponents? Wrong again. Washington is 10th, SF is 12th, Arizona 4th and Florida is dead last in offense. Cincinnati is 1st, Pittsburgh 7th, LA 9th and STL 12th. If you average the opponents rankings, Houston has put up a significantly worse ERA against significantly WORSE offenses. And I particularly like how you Houston fans don't show around here when times are tough, only when it is convenient. You show up here just after we find out our best player is hurt, gloating about your quick start against crap teams like you are the best team in the league. GMAFB. At least the Cards fans have some dignity and integrity. We didn't hear a peep from you in the first half last year. And if Roger doesn't come back, Pettitte realizes last year was a fluke, your bullpen outside of Wheeler and Lidge is exposed as the medicocrity it is.....well then you will just slink back into the woodwork. Classy.

We have riff raff like Bynum on the 40 man, so we can afford to do so. http://www.rhps.org/archive/pictures/riff_raff/riff_raff.0006.jpg Bynum? lol

I think a hot start against lousy competition has you high. The question is, will you show your face on this board when Roger officially retires, it becomes clear that outside of Oswalt, Pettitte and Ligde your pitching is average and you guys actually hit some real competition? Of your opponents, Washington and Milwaukee are in the bottom 5 in ERA. Arizona is middle of the pack. Of the Cub opponents so far, STL and LA are in the top 4 in ERA. Florida is in the top 5, but they also held you to 3 runs a game. And Everett and Ausmus have both been hitting. Is that going to continue? Not likely at all. If it were only Berkman and Ensberg hitting, it would be a better sign for the Astros. The fact that guys are hitting that won't keep hitting doesn't bode well for your maintenance of the 3rd place in runs standing. And whole Lane may start hitting, Ensberg is going to cool off quite a bit. Notice also that Both the Cubs and Cards have team ERA's over half a un lower than Houston's. And the Cubs are doing that without 2 of their top 3 starters. Even if Clemens returns, and returns to Houston (neither of which are close to a given), your staff won't be better than the Cubs or Cards. Andy Pettitte isn't going to repeat his aberrant 2005 season. Oswalt is great, but the back end of your rotation wouldn't scare most AA teams. And no, your bullpen isn't the best. The Cubs rotation is already better, and will get Prior, Wood and Miller. (say what you will, but when the Wood and Prior are healthy, they are VERY good) and you might get back Clemens. Also note that multiple source are reporting Wood looks as good as he has since 2003. Advantage Chicago. And that doesn't take into consideration that the Cubs also have the best bullpen in the league (don't even try and say Houston's is better). Houston isn't going to run away with anything, don't dilude yourself (though from your fist post in this thread it seems you already have). The Cards are still the team to beat, and even with Lee injured, it's going to be a 3 team race.

Change the first good to great, and change the second good to outside. I understand what you are saying, but STL and Houston aren't going to separate themselves from the pack much. All the Cubs have to do is keep their heads above water until Wood and Co. get back. And the schedule for the next month or so is conducive to that.

Houston has been playing the dregs of the NL so far (mostly at home in the offense box). We'll see how that holds up. Plus Ramirez, Jones and Pierre have yet to get going. And for the record, Dempster's numbers as a closer last year were better (and much better so far this year) than Lidge's.

Wait til Ramirez heats up. Ramirez and even Jones. Pierre is just starting to get going. As bad as Jones is, he has been far worse than he usually is. It's not like the offense was firing on all cylinders or anything. To maintain the scoring pace, all that has to happen is for Ramirez, Jones and Pierre to heat up to even just their average production. This team can stillscore enough to win, if the pitching is good. If the Cubs can keep themselves in the top half of the division until Wood and co. get back, they'll still have a good shot.

2 of them had partially torn or frayed labrums. Exactly. I don't follow. You're not expecting them to be better that what we have based on their ERAs from last season, but you're conceding 2 of them were injured? I'm taking the cautious approach here. I'm just saying that it's not guaranteed that these guys are going to come back and light it up especially when two of them are coming off a significant injury which needed surgery. The point here is that even coming off injury, they are so much more talented than the pitchers that they will be replacing that they won't have to light it up to be an upgrade. They have both been repaired, and at the least we know Kerry is healthy now. The chances of them being as bad or worse after being repaired than they were injured is pretty slim.

Multiple sources are reporting that Wood looks really good. I think it is a safe bet he will be in physically better shape than he was last year when he returns. And whenever Wood has been healthy, he's been very, very good. Expecting him to better a 4.5+ era is in no way unrealistic. I think the fact that they had their labrums repaired and are successfully recovering is a good indicator that they will probably be better than they were last year. It's only logical.

And as Miller was, Kerry was pitching at well less than 100%. Those numbers probably are not indiciative of what we can expect, at least in Kerry's case.

Exactly. From all accounts, Kerry looks really, really good. When he comes back, he is going to be an upgrade over whoever he replaces. It's not like Rusch and Marshall are tearing it up, or even pitching well. Saying Wood, Miller and Prior will make a positive impact if they return healthy is a statement of probability, not optimism.

Because they aren't abused there as much. It doesn't take a slide rule to figure out, especially if you have attended games there. Relatively speaking, the crowds at Busch are about as hostile as a bridge club or sewing circle. Really, as a player what would you have to say about a place where fans leave you alone as opposed to most places where you are heckled and insulted? You think they were great. The mildly hostile treatment Tino recieved is par for the course nearly everywhere else. There is no mystery here.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. It may well be that the fans there are more concerned with perpetuating the myth of the Cardinals as a paragon of baseball purity. Unfortunately that myth doesn't extend beyond "Cardinal Nation", which as I once said, is the Malta of fan "Nations". Again, think the player's opinion doesn't speak to much more than docile and bland nature of Cardinal crowds.

And what criteria did these players use to assess the fans? Hell, they probably just got heckled less in Busch. STL isn't the only place where fans cheer the fundamentals, or give opposing players props. It is however the home of some othe most docile and generally bland crowds I have seen in any sport, save maybe the crowds at Carver Hawkeye arena. Heck, prior to 2003 the north side of Chicago was probably the least pressure filled or hostile venue on earth, and what good did it do? And the players can say whatever they want, but you don't see top players lining up to give discounts to play in St. Louis. Do top free agents sign in droves for less because St. Louis has the "best fans in baseball"? Top players still flock to pressure packed and hostile envoronments like NYC and Philly because the bottom line is that money and not the fans are what makes a difference to players. I think this whole thing doesn't amount to a hill of beans. So if Cards fans want to believe a player survey equates to God's truth, then so be it. Even if it were true, it doesn't make a damned bit of difference.

You're clearly right. Or maybe it's just because we're jealous.