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Butler drew walks, Ichiro doesn't. Playing until you are 40-42 is not the same thing as maintain the level of performance through your mid-30's. I wasn't really arguing either side, just throwing out some stats that I found interesting. I tend to think Ichiro is a unique case - as you partially pointed out, he's very unsimilar to all the guys on the list. He doesn't rely only on speed as he has exceptional bat speed and hand-eye coordination. Will he be as good five years from now as he was when he broke in? No, but I also don't think he'll be a mediocre at best player either. I definitely don't think he'll be worth this contract in five years, though.

That was me. I thought a title more descriptive than simply "Sergio Garcia" was appropriate. I had never heard of any Sergio Garcia but the golfer. Knew I had to be missing something.

Provide some scrutiny that disproves it. I don't know of any thinly built speedy guys like Ichiro whose game held up throughout their mid 30's. We're talking about a guy with little patience and very little power whose entire game is based on his ability to make contact and run to first. The closest comparable I can think of is Kenny Lofton, but he had more patience and more power. He has stuck around a while, but has been quite inconsistent. Lofton Otis Nixon Ricky Henderson Ozzie Smith Lou Brock Willie Wilson Brett Butler Davey Lopes Omar Vizquel What a terrible attempt to defend your stance. LOL! You said, "I don't know of any thinly built speedy guys like Ichiro whose game held up throughout their mid 30's." Well now you know of several. Happy to be of service. Except for the fact that Ricky was never thinly built, and Brett Butler, Davey Lopes, Otis Nixon, Lou Brock, Omar Vizquel, Ozzie Smith, and Kenny Lofton were pretty much medicore to crappy players by their mid 30s. Is it really that hard to look up statistics? Baseball reference is your friend. Number of times over a .360 OBP from 33 and older Butler - 8 Lopes - 4 Nixon - 3 Brock - 2 Vizquel - 2 Smith - 2 None of them ever hit for much power, so OBP was the best judge given their style of play. Vizquel and Smith have never been known as good hitters, so I wouldn't say they "became" mediocre - they always were. Butler had an OBP over .400 3 times after 33. All the players played until they were between 40-42.

Who, the golfer?

Using that philosophy, wouldn't he want to throw a first pitch strike when the winning run came to the plate? Wouldn't he want to throw a first pitch strike when the winning run got on base and then in scoring position? Of course he did....just because the bases became loaded didn't mean he had this ability to throw a first pitch strike which he wasn't able to do to any previous hitter. Those decisions ultimately come down to the hitter when you're dealing with a player like Pujols. They always get the green light. I don't think any manager has any say there. A pitcher almost always has the ability to groove a fastball down the middle of the plate (with the exception of Rick Ankiel). So why did K-Rod not groove one earlier? The bases weren't loaded and it was less important to not walk the batter. Once the bases were loaded, a walk tied the game so K-Rod couldn't afford to fall behind in the count. The hitter has to recognize that and look for a fastball down the middle. If he gets a fastball grooved down the middle he should swing, any other pitch he should lay off of.

Better yet, move Fonz to right and Rowand to center. Either way, TLR is either prodigiously stupid or just didn't want to use Albert for his own team's benefit. I'll go with the latter. I mean saving Albert that one AB might make the difference between 3rd or 4th place. I didn't want Albert to PH for Lee, but I was literally stunned that he let Hudson go up there. It's inexcusable. If Rowand was pinch hit for, he couldn't remain in the game to play center. The best option would have been to put Sori in center and Pujols in left if he pinch hit for Rowand. If he pinch hit for Hudson, Sori goes to second and Pujols in left. If LaRussa is that worried about playing other teams' players out of position, why not put Pujols in center? Before the game LaRussa said he could play anywhere.

Yeah they showed him. Apparently Pujols isn't too happy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's the All-Star game. He can do what he wants," Pujols said Tuesday night. "He does whatever he wants. If I wasn't expecting to play, I wouldn't have come up here" "If he wants to get upset, he can get upset," La Russa said. "Whatever he wants to do, he can do. It's America. That wasn't the most important thing tonight." I guess I'll toss this one out. If they're having problems, wonder if we could do them a favor and take Pujols off their hands before team chemistry starts to get screwed up. Wouldn't want that to happen. :wink:

Agreed. I can understand (though not agree) with not using Pujols for Hudson. Once the bases were loaded, there's no excuse. Exactly my thinking. With as unlikely as a tie is in that situation, there's no doubt you pinch hit the best hitter in the game.

Holliday Thanks. That would mean Soriano in left. Makes things a bit more iffy, but not much.

Chances are better that Pujols wins the game, not just send it to extras. With the bases loaded and Derrek Lee standing at second, chances are a basehit scores two and, thus, wins it. I still don't think you can risk it. And again, Rowand isn't a pitcher up there, it's not like letting him hit is throwing the game. I understand Rowand is a good hitter, but Pujols is in a completely different ballpark. With home-field advantage on the line, I think you have to take the chance, especially when the odds are so much on your side. We're going to have to agree to disagree. No matter the hitter, you can't use the last position player you have in that situation, especially considering the defensive positioning issues it would've caused the very next inning, never mind concerns from playing with an empty bench. Wouldn't the move just have been to have Rowand come out, Soriano move to CF and Pujols to LF which he has played before. Had Pujols pinch hit for Hudson, Sori would have gone to second and Pujols in left. Pujols for Rowand would likely give your scenario. By the way, who was in right for the NL?

Chances are better that Pujols wins the game, not just send it to extras. With the bases loaded and Derrek Lee standing at second, chances are a basehit scores two and, thus, wins it. I still don't think you can risk it. And again, Rowand isn't a pitcher up there, it's not like letting him hit is throwing the game. I understand Rowand is a good hitter, but Pujols is in a completely different ballpark. With home-field advantage on the line, I think you have to take the chance, especially when the odds are so much on your side. We're going to have to agree to disagree. No matter the hitter, you can't use the last position player you have in that situation, especially considering the defensive positioning issues it would've caused the very next inning, never mind concerns from playing with an empty bench. Yeah, it doesn't appear either of us is going to convince the other. On one last note, though, LaRussa said before the game he had no problem playing Pujols anywhere. So his going to left wouldn't be an issue and I don't think it would have hurt Sori to play a couple innings at second.

This idea continues to intrigue me. I don't think he threw the game, but my opinion has always been that LaRussa is a better manager than to let Pujols sit on the bench.

Chances are better that Pujols wins the game, not just send it to extras. With the bases loaded and Derrek Lee standing at second, chances are a basehit scores two and, thus, wins it. I still don't think you can risk it. And again, Rowand isn't a pitcher up there, it's not like letting him hit is throwing the game. I understand Rowand is a good hitter, but Pujols is in a completely different ballpark. With home-field advantage on the line, I think you have to take the chance, especially when the odds are so much on your side.

Agreed, I didn't really understand it either. I don't know how you can pass on Pujols with the tying run on 3rd and the winning run on 2nd in the bottom of the 9th. The first time was kinda bad, but passing on him with the bases loaded? That was just silly.

Chances are better that Pujols wins the game, not just send it to extras. With the bases loaded and Derrek Lee standing at second, chances are a basehit scores two and, thus, wins it.

Hmmm, LaRussa threw the All-Star game eh? Interesting.

He did! Bases juiced for Rowand... Where is Pujols? :evil:

Yep, I believe you're right.

This is a dumb move. Gotta go with Pujols here.

DLee for the win! :D

Homer! Woohoo! Let's keep it up.

I get the feeling this one's over. Maybe it's the Cub fan in me.

2-1 American League after an Ichiro inside the park two-run homer.

Absolutely not. I really hate Buck and (as a minority view on the board) love Skip Caray. He's nowhere near his dad (nobody is in my opinion) but I really enjoy listening to a Skip Caray broadcast because he's similar to Harry in so many ways. Buck's just terribly annoying.

I wish TBS would have gotten the rights to this game too. Skip and Chip would be a whole lot better than Buck and McCarver.