dalgreen

Another ridiculous quote from Dusty, " Murton isn't the typical lead-off guy. He doesn't have enough speed." I'll place my bet on Murton beating Perez in the 100 m dash. I'd also take Murton over Eckstein in the 100 m dash. Nevertheless, it's about getting on base. Changing subjects: why are you guys trying to put Dubois and Murton in the same class? You shouldn't . Dubois is 27 years old and played many, many years in the minors. Why some of you are still considering him a "kid" is somewhat hilarious. Murton has/had more upside than Dubois. I don't understand why Dubois' name is even being brought up. I don't even think he's in the same class as Murton.

The Cardinals' injuries were a problem and I think everyone would say that. But there is a difference between the Cardinals' and Cubs' injuries. Turn the clock back to March 31st and give me the Cards top three players who must remain healthy. I'd bet you would've said Carpenter, Izzy (maybe Mulder) and Pujols. Well, Izzy spent 15 days on the disabled list and Carpenter and Pujols weren't on the disabled list. Ask a Cub fan and we would've said Wood, Prior and Zambrano (of fill in the blank on the third player). Depending on our third player all three could've been on the disabled list --- missing many more than 15 days. The Cardinals have done an outstanding job considering the players they missed at times this season. But as I said, sometimes it's not the number of players but which ones that make a difference. Then at some point durability has to be factored in to the value of a pitcher. I'd say the reason the Cards were able to manage the injuries of so many position players at the same time was because of their bench depth which Prior probably needs to add to his list of differences. And because Eckstein is having a good season getting on base, Pujols is being Pujols, Molina's bat has been better than expected. Yes, bench depth is something Prior needs to add. But if you were on here at the beginning of the season (maybe you were) many of us didn't like our bench. I would love to know how many teams(not named Atlanta) could miss their #1 starter for pretty much the entire season, and lose their #2 guy for about three months and still make the playoffs?

I think Patterson's tenure with the Cubs is over. I'm not sure where he'll be traded to, but I have no doubt he'll be traded. As a former Patterson defender/supporter, I can finally say I wouldn't shed a tear if he were traded. Last night was the final straw for me. Matt Murton homers on a first pitch fastball right down the middle, and Corey then comes up and for some stupid reason thinks he would get a first pitch fastball and swings and misses at an off-speed pitch. Sorry... I digress. There is no way, we should project Patterson to be the starting CF next year. To me, he really just needs to start over. If Perez is on the team next year, then I don't want to see Hairston on the team, either. I could live with one, but couldn't live with both Hairston and Perez.

The Cardinals' injuries were a problem and I think everyone would say that. But there is a difference between the Cardinals' and Cubs' injuries. Turn the clock back to March 31st and give me the Cards top three players who must remain healthy. I'd bet you would've said Carpenter, Izzy (maybe Mulder) and Pujols. Well, Izzy spent 15 days on the disabled list and Carpenter and Pujols weren't on the disabled list. Ask a Cub fan and we would've said Wood, Prior and Zambrano (of fill in the blank on the third player). Depending on our third player all three could've been on the disabled list --- missing many more than 15 days. The Cardinals have done an outstanding job considering the players they missed at times this season. But as I said, sometimes it's not the number of players but which ones that make a difference.

I wouldn't mind seeing Lofton. I just hope some fans realize the starters' ERA may go up a bit because his defense is shaky as we saw at times in 2003.

That's the simple way to state it, and you are right. However, how far ahead (or behind) would the Cardinals be if Rolen was healthy all year (keeping Walker's and Sanders' injuries), but Carpenter missed as much time as Wood did and Mulder missed the equivalent of Prior? Dal, you always make good points, but injuries are one place that you can't say the Cards have been lucky this year. Yes, the starting staff has been healthy, but like Prior said, they're not very good anyway. ;) He was talking about the 3-5 starters. Carpenter and Mulder, as my examples point out, have been very good. I'd give you Rolen being healthy all year, but without Carpenter it would've been interesting to see what the division standings would've looked like.

You could also ask how many homers he'll give up tonight or you could ask how many 0-2 counts will turn into 3-2 counts before he strikes a guy out?

That's the simple way to state it, and you are right. However, how far ahead (or behind) would the Cardinals be if Rolen was healthy all year (keeping Walker's and Sanders' injuries), but Carpenter missed as much time as Wood did and Mulder missed the equivalent of Prior?

I agree. But I wish people would recognize that OBP is important up and down the lineup and not just at the top. Many innings could be led off with the #4 hitter, #7 hitter, #5 hitter, or the #3 hitter. It's important for the first batter of an inning to have the ability to get on base.

Where was Bill Madlock ranked?

I don't think anyone is saying the only reason the Cubs are a bad team is because of fundamentals. It's just one of several reasons and they are a bad fundamental team.

Why do you automatically equate fundamentals to bunting? I think of executing a run down properly, shifting your weight in blocking pitches in the dirt, turning a routine double play, hitting the cutoff man........ I agree, Dal. My view of fundamentals is much broader. However, I differ from you with regard to your position that you need to hear that the coaching staff is being somehow negligent until you will lay blame at their feet. While the individual player certainly deserves his share of responsibility, a pattern of fundamental breakdowns should cause increased scrutiny on the coaching staff. The instances you referenced above are all things that can be addressed throughout the year. Generally speaking, I don't think players that continue to struggle make it in the majors for extended periods. We aren't talking about young guys, here. Many of the criticisms of the Cubs' fundamental failures are from guys who have been around (Rusch, Remlinger, Walker, Barrett, Burnitz, Patterson, Macias, etc.) Why have their fundamental lapses been so prevelant under this staff? Further, what in the heck is management doing bringing in veteran players whom they know have fundamental deficiencies, if indeed the problems were so evident in the first place? There really is no way around the fact that managment and/or the coaching staff bears some burden of blame for the broad display poor fundamentals, even in the absence of someone confessing that the staff ignored dealing with the lapses. I agree, JC. That's why I said I won't entirely blame the coaching staff -- they do deserve blame, but I don't think they bear 100% of the blame. I still believe if you look at our roster, how many of the guys on it would you use the term "fundamentally sound" and their name in the same sentence? As you know, I've said I don't think we have a "baseball smart" team, anyway. Add that to a not so smart coaching staff and we see the results.

Why do you automatically equate fundamentals to bunting? I think of executing a run down properly, shifting your weight in blocking pitches in the dirt, turning a routine double play, hitting the cutoff man........

Bravo to Corgan -- although he merely stated what we've been saying on here all year. One thing I disagree with is his opinion on fundamentals. I won't entirely blame the Cub coaching staff for this until I read or hear of them not spending the appropriate amount of time addressing this. I choose to blame the personnel. Think about it, look at the roster. There aren't many guys on our roster who have a reputation for being fundamentally sound, whether with the Cubs or before joining the Cubs. I hope Hendry takes a look at this when acquiring guys in the off-season.

:lmao:

I still would love to get Helton and put him left.

I've always thought the increase in home runs came more from a change in the baseball and smaller parks than steroids.

Please, just say no to Burnitz. I thought we were trying to get younger, especially in the outfield? We will have a 35 year old and a 36 year old in the outfield. if you sign Giles and Burnitz. Once again, Giles will likely seek a three-year deal, I say no to that, but yes to a one-year deal. I'm actually sick of the baserunning blunders and the strikeouts that come with Burnitz. If he's a 4th outfielder, I might be able to live with him, but I was disappointed with his bat this year. My ideal situation is for Todd Helton to say I want to be a Cub and I will play left field. Heck, some are talking about moving Nomar to left, I'd rather have Helton.

I think Tino got a raw deal here. When he was signed, I figured you'd gotten a 20-25 hr and 75-80 rbi guy. And that's what he did when he was here. I think some fans thought since he was a former Yankee that meant he was the one missing link to the World Series and not good starting pitching like you had last year and this year. I'm not a booer, but fans do have the right to boo. I just don't know why one would boo Tino or Templeton (who only flipped off the fans behind the dugout and not the entire stadium) if they were brought back but wouldn't boo McGwire.

Listen you are aruging wiht like 2 cards fans. Most the cardinals fans on here and on the Cardinals board agree with you and the cubs fans. Its not cheating it should have been an error but every hometeam gets them. Your classifying all cardinals fans when most dont believe there was anything wrong. I meant to place the word "some" in front of Cardinal fans in my first sentence. But in no other way could you have gotten from my post that I was grouping all Cardinal fans, because that was not my intent. My intent was just to the original poster of the thread. I know there are some "good" Cardinal fans, and that's always tough for me to admit.

This thread just shows what will happen on here if Andrew Jones wins the MVP over Pujols or Willis/Clemens wins the Cy Young over Carpenter. This is the only time I'm glad to be living in St. Louis so that I can provide information that Cardinal fans seem to forget. Another poster listed a time when the official scorer changed the scoring to benefit Rolen. Well, and Cardinal fans dispute me if I'm wrong (which I'm not), there have been several times that Duncan has griped to the official scorer , during and after games, in STL to change the scoring from hits to errors to help their pitchers' ERA. So, why is it cheating now? Oh yea, because it's the Cubs.

:lmao:

Tino was booed this season and it wasn't because he is with the Yankees. He wasn't introduced as a former Cardinal, was he? No. But the "best fans in baseball" would never boo unless they meant it.

Tino was booed this season and it wasn't because he is with the Yankees. He wasn't introduced as a former Cardinal, was he? Tell you what. Do a poll among your Cardinal fan brethren and ask them about Templeton and I bet you there will be more saying they'd boo him than cheer. And if they choose to cheer him it's only because if it weren't for him Ozzie wouldn't be a Cardinal. Cardinal ownership wouldn't even invite him to Busch Stadium I bet.

Hendry won't get fired. Remember, the only reason why Lynch isn't the GM is because MacPhail accepted his resignation --- the second resignation he submitted to MacPhail. So, if MacPhail wasn't bright enough to fire Lynch than he's not about to fire Hendry.