dalgreen

Tino wasn't a "true" Cardinal. So what? Was Kerry Robinson? Was Placido Polanco? Tino was brought over because he was a Yankee and Cardinal fans and GM/manager thought that would automatically mean a World Series appearance, and it didn't. McGwire did speak highly of the city and the fans. But he also left for California the next day the Cardinal season was over, and he faxed his retirement to ESPN --- says a lot for how he felt about the organization. Your last paragraph, all I have to say is ....... :scratch:

Of course, as a Cub fan, I'd love to see DLee win the MVP. But you'd call it a disgrace if Pujols won? Ssh. This thread is for Derrek. Oops..... shame on me. :silent:

McGwire is the target because that's what this thread is about. If you want to talk about all the other players who I suspect used and the many in the NFL who I still think use then I'll participate in that thread. This thread is about McGwire. I know you want to believe that Cub fans would act as blind sheep like a lot of Card fans, but speaking for myself, I wouldn't give Sosa an applause, either. Just as I said with Mac, I just stood and didn't clap, the same thing I'd do with Sosa. And I lived here in St. Louis during 1998, and was present on Sept. 8, 1998, and applauded because I witnessed first hand something that I, and millions of people, never thought would be broken. Yes, I now feel cheated, although I suspected both were using, but chose to give them the benefit of the doubt. I gave McGwire the benefit of the doubt all the way until last spring at the congressional hearings. Again, if you want to talk about all the other "ills" of baseball past and present, I'll be more than happy to participate in that thread. But it blows my mind how Ray King gets booed, Tino Martinez got booed, but McGwire didn't. Something seems wrong with that picture.

As I've said before, LaRussa and Baker are too similar in a lot of ways. It's just that the Cardinals have had enough talent to compensate for a lot of LaRussa's errors. One glaring example is his constant loyalty to Morris. As a Cub fan who would love to see the Cards bounced by the Padres in the NLDS, I'm glad that Suppan is the odd-man out. I think, right now, he gives you just as good a chance of winning as Carpenter or Marquis and a better chance than Morris. Losing Reyes is a blow to the Cardinal pen, especially since it seems that Carpenter can no longer go his typical eight or nine innings. It looks as if the first four NLDS games could be played in the afternoon, at least the first two will. I'd still have the rotation of Carpenter, Mulder, Suppan and Marquis.

Some of you take the game way, way, WAY too seriously. I watch the game for the enjoyment of the game. I enjoyed what McGwire did in St. Louis. Nobody's going to take that enjoyment away from me. Not only that, but McGwire is a decent human being. The sanctimonious attitude that some of you exhibit is almost laughable. I think that some of you are downright HAPPY that you think you have a legitimate reason to hate McGwire. Furthermore, this attitude is pretty short-sighted. You think it's OK to hate Mac, because 1) he was highly successful, and 2) you've convinced yourself that he's been proven guilty of something (even though he hasn't). Meanwhile, you want to ignore the fact that some of your heroes are likely doing the same thing that McGwire was (or might have been) doing. But as long as they don't break any of your sacred records while doing it, and as long as they don't get "busted", you'll love them just the same. McGwire is loved in St. Louis. Always will be. The fact that Cardinal fans don't carry the bitterness around with them that alot of the rest of you choose to carry around is what allows them to enjoy the game so much, in my opinion. Yeah, I guess I do take the game too seriously as do many other fans and former players who believe in the integrity of the game. I don't know why McGwire is classified as a "decent human being". Here's a guy who first claimed when accused by Canseco, "Consider the source." And give it up on the sanctimonious crap. That's just words people use to justify their position. If McGwire had even said, "If I used it, then it was done unknowingly" I'd have more respect for him. And I'd have more respect for him if he came out and said he used it. But if you enjoyed watching all those home runs while being duped into thinking it was being done the right way, that's your call. But I wonder what the Maris family really thinks about McGwire? But then again, I guess it's your position that every weightlifter, swimmer and track and field athlete who have lost their medals because of steriods or other illegal doping, should be given their medals back.

Of course, as a Cub fan, I'd love to see DLee win the MVP. But you'd call it a disgrace if Pujols won?

A blast from the past: I know one guy who used to kill the Cubs as a leadoff hitter. How many of you remember Omar Moreno? I don't recall how he did overall, but against the Cubs it seemed like he was always on base.

September play from young guys can be overblown. What if Murton hits .210 with a .285 OBP in spring? I don't expect that to happen but there is a possibility, although slight, just as none of us expected the poor season from Patterson. I still would be fine if Murton is the 4th outfielder next year because that would mean (or at least I hope) we have some high OPS in the corner outfield positions. When Hendry brings up our farm system products, I hope he hasn't forgotten that Murton isn't a Cub farm product. You can tell from his plate discipline. I'll be glad when we can produce position players from our farm like we have in our pitching like Zambrano, Wood, Ohman and Wuertz.

I do think it's that simple. There were plenty of people (granted nowhere near the majority) questioning whether or not McGwire, Sosa, et al were juiced. But then when fans would pose the question to other fans, they were hit with replies like, "Prove it." Even with the Andro stuff with McGwire there were some fans saying he's not playing the game the right way. Again, they were hit with, "Andro is legal in baseball", although it was illegal in virtually every other sport. Now that these people have been vindicated, I think they deserve every right to boo or not applaud. I can't believe so many so-called fans can just overlook the issue especially since so many revered records have fallen or will fall. As I said, this wouldn't fly in track and field nor should it fly in baseball. We're not talking about utility guys being the only ones to take them, but we're talking about potential hall-of-famers.

Don't you think the passing of a young man in the prime of life with two young children and a wife is slightly more tragic than someone who was 78 and sick in the hospital for weeks before he passed? Death is death, but when you can prepare for it in advance it is much easier to deal with. vaball - I was at the game and I didn't really hear much booing at all. I think the booing is exaggerated because people don't want all Cardinals fans to look like blind homers. There was definitely more booing for Renteria when he returned than for McGwire's return. There were some boos, but I'd bet it was only 10%.

I have never understood the love for Jim Tracy.

I'm sure my post will upset some, but oh well.... The Cardinal fans acted just like the blind sheep I knew they would. I just wanted to applaud the few in my section that either booed or just stood there without applause. As much as a lot of Cardinal fans want to defend their actions by saying, "This is a celebration", well no it wasn't last night. When McGwire came to tear down the #3 it was about him, and not the stadium's history. If he had come out with all the other former Cardinal players, then, yes, it would've been about the organization. I've always said there are people who are baseball fans first and their team fans second. The ones who didn't applaud McGwire are baseball fans first. The ones who applauded him are Cardinal fans first. Basically, I'm saying those that applaud or just want to ignore it are those who go to games to be entertained and not for the love of the game. If you go to baseball games to be seen or to brag to your co-workers or just to see home runs then you probably would applaud McGwire. But if you took '98 seriously, and McGwire, then you should feel cheated. I equate it to Ben Johnson and the '88 olympics. Some of you may be too young to even know what I'm talking about. But he smashed the world record in the 100m dash, I mean smashed it. A week later his gold medal and record were taken away with his positive steroid test. If he went to the Penn Relays or some other big track event, I don't think the fans nor track coaches would applaud him today. I was also disappointed in LaRussa, who gave him a big applause, too. LaRussa had been adamant that McGwire had never taken steriods. I can't believe that he still believes that, so the applause may have just been for show.

Or his skin color What? Apologies for the vague response. I was only insinuating that Dusty would likely get hired simply because he would be a "minority hire". No racist intentions whatsoever. Hmmm..... I'll take your word for it, though I think teams would look at his .530 winning percentage over his skin color. Gosh, with first time hires of people of color like Randolph and Guillen, I'd think fans would get over this "minority hire" garbage. If that were really the case, then why hasn't anyone hired Cito Gaston, a two-time World Series winner? Or Baylor? Who, I think, has shown through his teams' records, that he's just not a good manager.

I think Murton, Hill and Mitre might do it. Unless Billy has had his fill of pitchers, then it might be something like Murton, Sing and Hill, possibly with Fontenot thrown in somewhere. I wouldn't want to see that move, but if they went out and traded or signed for impact OF bats, I wouldn't object too much. Given our outfield situation, there's no way I'm letting go of Murton now. As much as I would love to have Zito fill out our rotation, isn't there someone else we could send along? My plan wouldn't call for a trade of Murton. But if the Cubs can get Chipper in a trade and sign Giles, I'd have no problem dealing him. In other words, if you fill the OF spot with production, go ahead and trade Murton if you have to. I wouldn't mind getting Chipper, but you better go out and get somebody else as well. The thought of Jones and ARam and the liklihood of them sitting on the DL together scares me to death.

I apologize if I'm sounding like a homer, but if Wood and Prior were healthy all year, and Carpenter and Mulder were hurt to the extent that Wood and Prior were, I think the Cardinals would be asking the questions that the Cubs are now. All you have to do is look at the present. The Cards have lost 8 of their last 11 because Carpenter and Mulder (along with others) haven't been good. I say we need better planning. We better go into next season expecting ARam to miss at least 15-25 games; therefore we need a quality back-up at third. We better plan on Wood and Prior missing some starts; therefore, we need to go at least seven deep in the rotation (meaning pretty good arms and not just guys). If you sign Lofton, you better have a darn good back-up player in case his body finally realizes that he's pushing 40 or, maybe worse, he goes back to his 2000-2004 norm. We need better players and back-ups for the regulars.

Now batting leadoff and playing CF for your 2006 Chicago Cubs - Brad Wilkerson! I know there is rampant man love for Wilkerson arround here...but doesn't it bother anyone that his average and OBP have regressed for two straight years and that his Average AND OBP are worse than Walker's and would only be right around 6th amongst players I count as potential regulars for next year? (He's behind Lee, Ramirez, Walker, Murton, Cedeno)....I think he'd probably cost to much for the arguably limited return on investment. (Ducks waiting for somene to throw things and yell that Wilkerson is God) To me, the answer to your question is yes. Then again, I've never been overly fond of him.

Funny thing about the so-called "malcontents", "psychos", "bad attitudes", etc., most of the ones you hear about you never hear former teammates call them a bad teammate. You'll hear media guys, ownership and fans doing the name calling, but I've never heard anyone call Milton Bradley a bad teammate, I don't remember anyone calling Albert Belle a bad teammate, and Gary Sheffield may have been hated by ownership in Milwaukee and San Diego, but I never heard any of his former teammates call him a bad teammate.

I heard that too. You're a good one to only chuckle, I laughed and almost threw a shoe at the tv. When Perez comes to the plate the first at-bat of every series, I think broadcasters should make this public service announcement: "Neifi Perez once had 200 hits in a season (a very good thing), yet he failed to hit .300 in that season (a very bad thing when you have 200 hits). How? Why? Because he had over 700 plate appearances in that season because he won't allow pitchers to walk him."

Despite the bonehead decisions and non/decisions of our GM and manager, I still think those could've been overcome if Prior and Wood had been able to make at least 25 starts each. That's why I would say, in my opinion, injuries were 70% of the problem. Not to mention if Nomar could've even played in 120 games and Walker's six-week absence. But Prior and Wood being out killed us. I then go with: GM/manager - 20% low OBP - 10% I am a strong proponent of OBP, but I also believe we had a low OBP last year. Yet if not for the last week collapse, we would've been in the playoffs. And weren't we relatively low in OBP in 2003? I think our success was built around our starting pitching, therefore, if that goes down then you're pretty much set to fail.

First off, are they really throwing in the towel by playing Zimmerman and Church instead of Castilla and Guillen? Second, no, I wouldn't be pissed in your example. Each team has to do what is best for them. If that means playing youngsters to get ready for the following year, then so be it. IIRC, we were playing Cincy a lot down the stretch in 2003 and they were playing a whole bunch of kids. I don't remember anyone around here complaining about that! To your first question, no. But I read that to mean pretty much all the starters would sit, including the pitchers, which was never definitively stated one way or the other. To the second point, yes. And there would be plenty of people on here upset (including me) if we were battling the Phillies for the wild card (especially if we were a game or two behind) and the Nationals weren't trotting out anything remotely resemebling their best possible lineup.

Yes, but we can level the playing field by throwing in the towel against the Astros... :D Good point. But I'm stubborn, there's no way I want to be a team that had two teams clinch a playoff berth against. It's bad enough to have a team clinch against you, but add to that it was the Cardinals and now possibly the Astros? No thanks.

Back in April and May there was lots of talk about McKeon possibly being fired, then when they got hot the talk stopped. Is Burnett the only one that has been critical of McKeon and why did talk of his possible dismissal stop?

I know we're upset that more young guys aren't playing, but I'd imagine there are plenty of people within the Astros organization and their fans who should be upset if Robinson pretty much throws in the towel considering they finish the season with the Phillies. I know, or I should say I hope, we Cub fans would be pissed if an opposition of a team we were battling for the playoffs threw in the towel.

That's what I thought last year, too.

There seems to be a perception that the subject of sports psychology is something negative. Professional teams use psychologists as consultants a lot, and Patterson wouldn't be the first nor the last to see one. I'm for whatever will bring Patterson out of this "funk." I'm ticked that the subject was brought up without Patterson knowing about it -- if he truly didn't know anything about it.