Wilson A2000

I always think pitches are too low, but when WGN uses the field level camera, the umps usually call it correctly. As OleMiss has shown, the strke zone extends to the bottom of the kneecap.

No. Wikipedia is a pretty trustworthy source. It is much better than it was a few years ago.

I take it all back. Everything. Hank was a user. http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2007/02/hammerin_hank_a.html

They were just made illegal two years ago. Strong coffee pretty much did the same thing. Coffee has been used for years. I doubt any homerun records were dismantled because of greenies. methamphetamines were made illegal 2 years ago? They've been illegal in the same way steroids were illegal in baseball from the moment they were criminalized in the US. And beacon of hope, Hank Aaron broke Ruth's record on the stuff. Truly a disgrace. It's a double standard due to back in my day-ism, and the fact that Bonds is a miserable jerk while Aaron is a lovable hero. You mean amphetamines, not meth. I doubt many players are on meth. I meant illegal in the sense that they would be formally punished. Do you really think Aaron hit so many home runs due to greenies?

The juiced ball theory is still being investigated according to wikipedia. It wouldn't surprise me if they were. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juiced_ball_theory

Me too. While he did do that, why is that more important than a roided Bonds who broke the most cherished record in modern day sports? Is a walk greater than a home run? this is the kind of talk that people are sick of. Someone clean will one day break Maris' home run record and they will do it using all kinds of supplements and video and things that Maris never had a chance to use. Will you still be upset about it? No, everyone will cheer about how great it is that we have this all-natural slugger when there's very little difference between what he will have done and what Bonds did. There will be a difference. The reason some things are illegal to use in baseball and some aren't is because the products that are later deemed illegal are those that have the greatest effect on performance. I highly doubt anyone will be able to use anything legal that increased a person's home run output by 20 home runs in a season like steroids did. The league will hopefully catch it before that happens. With that said, HGH is undetectable now because the league won't allow blood tests yet. Pitchers can use video too. Video is helping everyone. Steroids helped a few.

I really do hate the elbow pad. It is not that pitchers are afraid to throw inside. It is that if a ball gets just a little bit away from the pitcher, the hitter turns into it and gets firstbase. And it doesn't even hurt the batter because the pad absorbs it. A price should be paid for first base if you are going to lean in to a pitch.

If everyone was on roids, there shouldn't have been such a spike in the number of home runs hit in the late 90's and early 2000's. Isn't that the argument that so many people make - well the pitchers were on them too so who cares? It obviously helped the hitters more, or a few hitters more. When the punishment for steroids was formalized increased in the 2003 season, guys got smaller. People started hitting less home runs. Baseball players looked more normal. I realize that anomalies occur. Someone will break Bonds' records, even though it might take 50 years. But it is not an anomaly when a known steroid user at the end of his career has 3-4 of his best, record-breaking years. That is too much of a coincidence.

Me too. While he did do that, why is that more important than a roided Bonds who broke the most cherished record in modern day sports? Is a walk greater than a home run? Bonds took away one half of the plate. Knowing where the pitch was going to be made it much easier to hit. Add his knowledge of the strike zone and his armor might have attributed to just as many home runs as steroids did. No way. You can still throw the ball inside when a player crowds the plate. It is actually easier to jam a hitter when he does that. Bonds was no closer to the plate during the early 90's compared to the late 90's and early 2000's. He hit way more home run during the latter. His body armor might have increased in size, but crowding the plate did not give him 72 or break Aaron's record. His massive arms did. Arms have very little to do with hitting home runs compared with legs/core. It's not like these guys are just in the gym doing curls. Arms and legs and core. My bad. Everything on Bonds was big beginning in '99.

I was confused as to whether you were talking about steroids and baseball records, or how concerned the public was about them. You didn't clarify that until now.

Me too. While he did do that, why is that more important than a roided Bonds who broke the most cherished record in modern day sports? Is a walk greater than a home run? Bonds took away one half of the plate. Knowing where the pitch was going to be made it much easier to hit. Add his knowledge of the strike zone and his armor might have attributed to just as many home runs as steroids did. No way. You can still throw the ball inside when a player crowds the plate. It is actually easier to jam a hitter when he does that. Bonds was no closer to the plate during the early 90's compared to the late 90's and early 2000's. He hit way more home run during the latter. His body armor might have increased in size, but crowding the plate did not give him 72 or break Aaron's record. His massive arms did.

Probably because you didn't clarify what the "its" is. Is it the first of second half of your sentence? ("My point is that it's a thread about its effect upon records and integrity of the game because that's all people care about, which is misguided considering all the facts.")

Me too. While he did do that, why is that more important than a roided Bonds who broke the most cherished record in modern day sports? Is a walk greater than a home run?

I directly stated that I disagreed with your point. Just because I don't agree with your point does not mean that I don't understand it. I am not misguided because I think it is pretty certain that the average person and sportswriter does not care if athletes do illegal things as much as they care about illegal things as they relate directly and influence the sport (ie steroids). To focus on what fans and sportswriters don't really care about, while certainly a part of the overall steroid debate, is incidental. There has been 50 times more chatter relating to steroids than all of the other illegal activities that MLB players did last year (and there were plenty of them).

Athletes do way worse things than take steroids, and for the most part they are welcomed back into the sporting world when they serve their time by the public. Think of all the DUIs athletes get (which are worse than taking steroids if you ask me). When athletes do illegal things that directly effect the sport, they aren't welcomed back. Yes there is more to steroids than their effect on the sport, but that is not at all significant in the court of public opinion.

Yes people would care if someone broke Maris' record with creatine. But creatine is not strong enough to do so. Anything that a person puts into his body must be extra powerful in order for a person to break Maris' record unless they were that once in a generation person would could do it cleanly. I don't think Bonds, Sosa, or McGwire was that person apart from the juice. I thought ARod could have been, but who knows now. This makes no sense. Bonds was 100 times the player Maris was, even before he juiced. If you laid out Bonds' and Maris' careers, Maris' is more suspect looking than Bonds' is. And you're still missing the point, that you should be upset that these players are breaking the law, not that they're breaking records. Every time an old record falls, the player that broke it did so with the aid of something that is "unfair" in that the old record holder didn't have access to it. But no one cares unless it's a home run record broken by a steroid user. Bonds was a better overall player than Aaron and Maris, but he would not have hit 73 without the juice and he would never have broken Aaron's record without it. I am upset that Bonds took something that was illegal. But this is a thread not on the legality of what Bonds did as much as it is the effect upon records and the integrity of the game. Another problem as I see it is that people are always looking at things from the short-term perspective. What will bring the fans back to baseball? I want to see a mammoth man wack a ball out of the park. People will get bored of baseball players and baseball itself when it becomes a game of pure power. I don't think the game could have survived long-term if the steroid question was not solved. Injuries would have become far too common (as they already have been). The fans end up paying more because salaries got out of control because of steroid-induced stats.

Certain drugs are illegal because they are extra potent. That is why creatine is not illegal in baseball, and anabolic steroids are. Yes people would care if someone broke Maris' record with creatine. But creatine is not strong enough to do so. Anything that a person puts into his body must be extra powerful in order for a person to break Maris' record unless they were that once in a generation person would could do it cleanly. I don't think Bonds, Sosa, or McGwire was that person apart from the juice. I thought ARod could have been, but who knows now.

They were just made illegal two years ago. Strong coffee pretty much did the same thing. Coffee has been used for years. I doubt any homerun records were dismantled because of greenies. you can't directly link steroids to broken home run records either. greenies were useful because they gave players that extra kick of energy they needed to get through the long season. steroids help you recover from fatigue and injuries more quickly (because I can't imagine players do a ton of heavy weight lifting during the season). in both cases, you still need to have bat speed, hand-eye-coordination, etc. that neither of those "supplements" can provide Yes you can. Bonds had his best years as his career was declining. He had his best years as soon as he was on the juice. His career path should have gone the other way. Big Mac was on the juice since his Oakland days. It is one thing to say that you don't think taking steroids is really a big deal. It is another thing to say that they weren't the cause of the home run binge from 1998-2005. Of course steroids don't swing the bat for you. They made good players great and great players world class ones.

that's actually a very good point. :shock: Weed is like creatine. Heroine is like anabolic steroids. The effect of steroids is many times stronger.

They were just made illegal two years ago. Strong coffee pretty much did the same thing. Coffee has been used for years. I doubt any homerun records were dismantled because of greenies.

No. I don't think you can erase records. But you can make sure they don't get into the Hall of Fame.

I know Roger Maris' record was overcome because of steroids

The problem is that the people who are hitting 50-60 home runs are not just using the legal supplements. They are all on steroids.

The reason that Barry Bonds hit the home runs he did is not because he worked out hard. He always did that. He hit the number he did at the end of his career because he was on steroids. Yes you still have to work out to get the benefits of steroids, but they give you so much more than the typical gym rat will get.

There is a big difference between the results creatine will give and the results anabolic steroids will bring. They aren't on the same level. I realize that it is a subjective process in determining what is banned and not banned, but the rules are the rules. Fine, the MLB did not impose punishments for taking steroids until 2003. But if you are going to take steroids and profit off of them (possibly extending your career and taking down cherished records), then you also have to be responsible for the poor persona you are going to acquire. You can't have your cake and eat it too. That is why the baseball writers and veterans committe might not vote a number of the high-profile steroid users in. And it is tough to disagree with a veterans committee member not voting Big Mac in someday when they know that he did something baseball said not to do in order to have the HR record for a time. McGwire had his day in the sun, now he will spend his days in the dark.