PriortoTheoIhadWood

I too was once a fan of Todd Walker.

Jay Jackson is probably fat at this point and has watched all his pitches diminish as a pro. I wold not make that comparison at all. Nope, not fat, just mysteriously lost his stuff. It is far more acceptable for a LHSP to be a junkballer. I don't see the comp. Funny though that you would look to comp him to Jackson, who's been a major disappointing for running on two years now...This whole Brooks Raley thing really bothered you, didn't it? I don't think a guy "maxing out" to 5th starterdom requires some kind of major leap. It basically means he's a warm body who throws starter innings anywhere from hopefully average to most likely below it. Possibly he makes it, possibly he doesn't (like JR Mathes or whatever his name is), I like him more than most and there's not much in the way of thousands of words that are going to really put a dent into that. Now Raley sucking? That would put a dent in it, but luckily that isn't happening this year so far.

Hopefully with my randomly favorite arm to follow Tayler Scott in the rotation. When is that? June?

I'm really not sure how that was even hard to see. I'm not gifting Raley anything he doesn't have or talking up his abilities to be anything more than they are here. Raley and Shark have looooong been known as (arguably) the two best athletes amongst the pitchers in the organization. As we're seeing, sometimes that can take a while to translate into pitching. Raley very fuckin obviously does not have the physical ceiling Shark does, but then again nobody was making that comparison based on ceiling until a game of Obtuse opened up.

Wait, really? There's major difference between a 6'6" former WR turned pitcher who throws 95 consistently and a 6'3" LH former OF? When you take the comparison that literally, sure. Generally speaking, I'm talking two of the best athletes in the system who came in with fresh arms and minimal backgrounds as pitchers compared to other college trained pitchers. Raley, amongst LH 5th stater types, stands out for being a significantly better athlete than most, even if he doesn't bring the heat. Man you've really got to vacuum seal your arguments to make a point sometimes...damn.

I don't see where or how I'm not appreciating how hard it is to learn CF. If anything this plays against your argument that Ha has everything to be the best defensive CF in the system because he's the least experienced and most raw at making reads and taking solid routes. It's a position that more often than not requires being a natural at...which is why your best CFers are lifers at the position. We did go in circles on that btw, so too late on that. You needed 1,000 words to get to fringe starter/backup OF, which is in the original post you replied to.

I find it mildly intriguing that you even see a similarity in that at all. There's a huge difference between going from a part time pitcher part time hitter/position player to full time pitcher. There's less of that going from RF to CF, and he played plenty of RF last year IIRC. Consider that this move to CF increases his perceived value for those who may only have taken glances at the Cubs' system. It's just another way of squeezing value out of a prospect to me, which is not what switching Raley to P did for him (that was defining his future role). Ha doesn't necessarily have to play CF in the long run, but Raley suddenly going back to being a hitter would be a major overhaul. Shark is in what...6th pro season? Throw in Raley being LH, a more rare commodity, and I see no reason to hold this being his 3rd/4th season against him. Pitching ain't easy...I think that's how the phrase goes. Edit: Holy jinkees, so we come full circle to basically a 4th OFer/non-starter, like I originally said? Save me Jeebus.

I've seen Ha a couple times and I have to disagree. Routes and reads are part of CF defensive tools, and he's not that good there with that stuff. He's also not as fast as most of those guys. He does probably have the best OF arm in the system, hence my RF projection. Szczur would get CF over Ha because he's better in CF than Ha is.

Yeah, he's really looked like [expletive]. ...Wow. That would be the point. So you meant casted, which isn't a word. Got it. Cast with extra letters actually...which probably has nothing to do with your original post anyway. imb, not tall and not projectable as a HS arm....Turns out it's because he's already got the goods. I was turned around after the mid-point of the whole draft talk saga anyway, but yep it did happen.

I mean ... if things really pan out for Ha, he's a potential stud CF, a top defensive guy who shows power, hits for average, and doesn't strike out a ton. That's his "ceiling". What's with the quotes around ceiling? And that's reeeeeeeally panning out, because I don't think that's what his toolset entails. Mostly I don't think he's any great shakes in CF, though he can handle it, and I think he profiles more as a RF. The rest is true enough, though hes' been purely a doubles guy as far as power is concerned so far (though I do like doubles, part of why I like Ha). Sick performance by Baez.

The point is that if you can hit you'll find a way onto the field even if no one has quite figured out what position you're going to play. Pujols wouldn't be a full time 1B until 2004, his 4th MLB season, which is where his mention fits into the discussion. If Lake can hit I expect he'll see ABs at 3B, LF, and RF. The discussion was about the term "super utility" and only involved Lake in so much as someone earlier having said that he might potentially fit that description. What? The discussion involved guys who might be able to hit, don't have a position, but do have the tools to find a position. Lake as a utility guy doesn't make sense because utility guys tend to be known for being competent defensive players rather than raw defensive players. Super utility just sounds like a phrase someone made up to glorify the job.

The point is that if you can hit you'll find a way onto the field even if no one has quite figured out what position you're going to play. Pujols wouldn't be a full time 1B until 2004, his 4th MLB season, which is where his mention fits into the discussion. If Lake can hit I expect he'll see ABs at 3B, LF, and RF.

Yeah, he's really looked like [expletive]. ...Wow. That would be the point.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH, that is not a thing!!!!!! I hated when everybody decided they had to describe Derosa that way. You are a utility player if you can't be a starter but can play multiple positions. There is not such thing as a "super utility" guy. What if you can play a bunch of positions (but none of them really all that well) but you're a very good hitter? Not that I disagree with you on the labels thing. If you are truly a "very good hitter" and can play a bunch of positions, you can play one of them well enough to start. That Albert Pujols guy comes to mind. 3B, LF, and eventually 1B.

This is mostly because of my contrarian nature, but I once castes doubts on Bundy. Even after I watched all the workout videos he put up...which are badass btw.

I wrote that at 4 AM for shiggles, there was no serious intent there.

Bbref says Rosario is from NY, he just happens to have a Latin name. Was he an IFA? Oh and: Then his ceiling remains a 5th starter.

I like Ha as well. Last year he always seemed to make a play when reading Timmers' wraps on BCB. He can play all three OF spots, he makes contact, he's hitting doubles, and he's young. I do wonder what his ultimate ceiling is. 4th OFer?

So now Rosario's slider is close to being plus and consistent? Man he keeps getting better and better! Other arms who could/probably will make the switch to relief at some point or another: Wang Peralta Cates Liria Rhoderick Francescon Reed Suarez (late addition, added him for the hell of it, originally was at 11 + Rosario) We're at 12 plus Rosario...13...that's before the draft, before IFAs, without a thorough rundown of the rosters (not that there's much pitching in this system), and so on and so forth. Didn't even count McNutt, who might be headed for the bullpen if he doesn't get it together. The rest...[expletive] it'll pain me to do it but might as well: I don't think you get the point about athleticism. Sure, athleticism plays into velocity but I'm also talking things like repeating mechanics, being able to adjust mechanics without getting hurt, generally staying healthy at all, being able to better improve command and control...This is the kind of stuff athleticism allows for, and Raley has that in spades. I don't think it's fair to simply ignore that this is a guy who could have been a fairly early draft pick on either side of the ball, and has only been focusing on pitching in the recent years of his baseball life. A 21 year old who is in his 4th, not first or second, season in pro ball stringing together 4 "mildly interesting" starts in Peoria doesn't do it for me. If it does it for you, then that's fine and all, but I'm not so sure that he merits so many words. I'm also crazy so... "Isn't great but is fine" sounds pretty meh to me, again. My guess is that he's not stuck in developmental purgatory because he has fine mechanics or command, but maybe there's something else going on (pot? Who doesn't like pot?). Raley is fighting with Rusin, who he's probably more physically talented than anyway. Rosario is fighting with a dozen other guys+ with similar profiles or profiles well within reason to being called similar, quite a few well ahead of him. It is devoid of power arms on the starting side, and I don't think Rosario is going to push that movement forward too much (if at all). There's plenty of potential pen arms, and probably more to come/be added. His baseball potential would be more freakish if he actually stood out in some way beyond being generic throws hard/spins ball RH who probably (and when I say this in his case I mean moreso than usual) won't make it as a starter. I think a potential LH 5th starter who might be able to handle the bat better than most pitchers, run the bases better than most pitchers, and field his position better than most is actually relatively more freakish, and while the Cubs system is so unexciting I have to remember to keep it all relative. I'm really not sure either of these guys merits all these words. I'm not being crazy but not being high on Rosario as a SP, and you're not being crazy by not being high on Raley. We're being crazy by using alot of words on them.

It's more complicated and free flowing than that I like to think. It shouldn't be thrown out that this is only Raley's 3rd season focusing on pitching (this was a player considered to be the best two way college player in his draft), while Rosario is working on year 4 in the Cubs system. I think the odds are overwhelmingly against (even more than usual) Rosario even remaining a starter, and this starting stuff is just a stage to let him work on his repertoire for the coming transition to the pen. Saying his upside is that of a #3 starter IMO is superficial and based on the fact that he has a strong arm rather than any realistic hope of him becoming a #3 starter. He's short...RH...4 years in on his development...primarily a two pitch guy who's main focus is refining that second pitch...isn't a strike thrower...probably doesn't even have consistent mechanics yet... I also think hard throwing RH pen arms with potential plus sliders are almost a dime a dozen at this point, so I value that accordingly. The Cubs have a dozen guys like Rosario in this system starting from Dolis on to Cabrera down. There are not many (any?) guys in the system who are like Raley, who amongst the soft tossing lefties is the biggest and most athletic (maybe Concepcion?). I like guys who stand out, and Raley is more of a freak in that area than Rosario is. There is a little bit of that valuing guys who'll make it to the show a little bit more. I think there should be some respect for that tbh, and it is something I do put some value in. As far as Wells, I think he's got #3-4 starter upside (made comps to Jake Westbrook before) who could jump up a notch if he keeps developing physically.

My thinking is that Raley is much more likely to be a #5 than Rosario is to being a #3. That sounds like a fairly standard interesting bullpen arsenal. Plenty of relievers, including current Cubs, were allowed to start in the minors until they weren't.

Jose Rosario just struck out 9 in 5.1 two days ago. Rosario has had a few outings with more Ks than IP. PJ Francescon has had a few back in April. Eric Jokisch had an 11 K in 7 inning outing in early May. Nick Struck opened the season with a 10 K game in 6 innings. Wells is easily the most talented and significant of that bunch...I Mean Francenscon is 23 and he's not even in High A for Jah's sake. Jokisch is your typical lefty junk baller who might be able to outsmart minor leaguers but major leaguers will most likely tee off on him. Struck has some potential but I'm not sold on him being anything major in the long run either. Rosario probably has some talent, but Wells is younger than him pitching at the same level. So I guess I should clarify....One of the few high K performances by a prospect I actually think will matter in 2 years. I actually find Raley's 7 K performance last week more significant than all of those performances except maaaaaaybe Rosario, who I basically don't know enough about (I can say 21, short, RH, low A, not because he's a recent college draftee). Rosario is widely considered a better prospect than Raley. Both are big mehs , but Raley is a healthy, athletic lefty so I guess I'm out of that wide range. Maybe once I learn more about Rosario, but I'm unusually optimistic on Raley for the time being. Neither is the kind of arm that makes a big time impact as starters, though I guess it can be argued that as pen arms will go Rosario > Raley. I think Raley has a better chance to remain a starter and pitch in the back of a rotation.

Jose Rosario just struck out 9 in 5.1 two days ago. Rosario has had a few outings with more Ks than IP. PJ Francescon has had a few back in April. Eric Jokisch had an 11 K in 7 inning outing in early May. Nick Struck opened the season with a 10 K game in 6 innings. Wells is easily the most talented and significant of that bunch...I Mean Francenscon is 23 and he's not even in High A for Jah's sake. Jokisch is your typical lefty junk baller who might be able to outsmart minor leaguers but major leaguers will most likely tee off on him. Struck has some potential but I'm not sold on him being anything major in the long run either. Rosario probably has some talent, but Wells is younger than him pitching at the same level. So I guess I should clarify....One of the few high K performances by a prospect I actually think will matter in 2 years. I actually find Raley's 7 K performance last week more significant than all of those performances except maaaaaaybe Rosario, who I basically don't know enough about (I can say 21, short, RH, low A, not because he's a recent college draftee).

I'm going to have to agree with Castro not being a #3 hitter right now. Call me old fashioned, and I realize the roster isn't strong enough to allow such consistency, but I think he should be thrown in the 2 hole to stay. Even leadoff is probably fine. He's not a 3 hole hitter right now, and honestly long term I'm not all that anxious to see him be the 3 hitter unless he's that good. 3 hole hitter can't be a relaxing spot...historically it goes to the best...maybe too much too soon for a 22 year old.

Soriano would be traded almost totally for the roster opening/flexibility that offers. He might be able to bring back a lottery ticket type minor leaguer, but multiple? Not so much. Before I go to bed every night I pay tribute to Jah in hopes that the Phillies or Giants take the dive.