cubfan1955

You are wrong that 300 ABs less is comparable. If Murton had those 300 ABs his slugging could be higher or lower or the same. No one knows what he would do in those 300 mythical ABs. In Floyd's case we KNOW what he did with those 300 ABs. I think it's a chicken and egg scenario. Lou won't play him unless he hits and he won't hit unless he gets to play. Maybe... I certainly am not convinced he's ever going to be a good everyday outfielder but on THIS team he should be playing. And anyday there is a LHP facing the Cubs Soriano should move over to CF and Murton play either RF or LF. I'd even consider sticking Barrett in LF and letting Blanco catch when healthy before ever see Jones face a LHP again in my lifetime. Edit: I've changed my mind. Murton doesn't deserve to be playing on this or any other team. If he's going to play defense like Manny Ramirez he could at least hit a little. Can't hit, can't play defense = trip to Iowa.

Again, why do people assume that? I could see it if his AB's were looking great and he was just unlucky but he's looked horrible.

But his 3 year splits are about 300 AB's fewer than Floyds so it's like comparing apples to oranges. Well I hope not but the pattern the Cubs are using him isn't working out so well. Right now I wouldn't mind seeing him do a stint in Iowa where he can get some regular AB's and maybe get his stroke back and then when Floyd does go down, as we all know he will, maybe Murton could come back and contribute. I'm wondering too if the Cubs didn't tell Cliff he would be a regular when they signed him and maybe that's why Murton is seeing so muuch bench time. I do agree it is not going to be easy to start hitting with his frequency of playing time he's getting now.

Yes but lately it's been like 2 steps forward, one step back as opposed to last year where it was one step forward, 13 steps back. :D What is it though with the bats falling asleep as games progress? It always seems as if the hitters just stop after about the 5th inning.

Murtons lack of power for a corner OF, not his BA, is what concerns me the most. Over the last three years, Murton and Floyd have an almost identical slugging percentage. 462 to 466. And Murtons is dropping when a player of his age should be on the rise. .521 in 2005, .444 in 2006, and .327 thus far this year but then 2005 and 2007 are small sample sizes so... People need to quit quoting 3 year splits with Murton. In 2005 he was only in 51 games and only 23 this year so far, His 3 year splits are more like 1.5 year splits.

Murtons lack of power for a corner OF, not his BA, is what concerns me the most.

Did you know.... Last year Murton hit .212/.257/.227/.484 last June, in 70 PA's(to compare, he has 57 or 60 this year, depending on if BR has updated or not). He then went on to put up an OPS north of .900 for the last 3 months(~250 PA's). The sample is not nearly enough to be decisive about his future. I agree it's not enough to be decisive about his future. His future should be based on his performance now. I hope he turns it around to more like the numbers you pointed out. That would help the Cubs and that's what I want to see. I really have nothing against him. But I can see why Lou isn't playing him everyday. Also, I don't know what happens behind the scenes. Is he doing extra hitting work, asking for help with his hitting, or what?

Because he's biased toward veteran players whenever possible. Before anybody brings up Theriot, remember he's not really taking a job from any vets. He's older than Izturis, and Cesar's medical problems means he doesn't have much of a track record for the past few years. Lou has made it quite clear throughout his career that he has no problem starting a veteran, regardless of who is actually better. And this year Murton has not been better than Jones or Floyd...or DeRosa for that matter. So it seems Lou has been starting the better player. SLG/OPS Murton .346/.679 Jones .406/.772 Floyd .431/.774 DeRosa .494/.841 Murton hasn't been given a chance to be better. It's pointless to bring up the small samples you are referring to. I'm sorry the season is only a little more than a month old and the small sample size but that's all I've got to go on this year. I'd like to see Murton succeed but he doesn't look like the same hitter from one year ago. He's regressing instead of progressing. Maybe the league has figured him out? It's up to him to adjust but I don't see it. He only has 13 fewer AB's than Floyd. The RH hitter in a plattoon situation is always going to have fewer AB's so I think Lou has given him the opportunities and he hasn't taken advantage of them. If he ever wants to be an everyday player again he should probably start hitting sometime soon.

Because he's biased toward veteran players whenever possible. Before anybody brings up Theriot, remember he's not really taking a job from any vets. He's older than Izturis, and Cesar's medical problems means he doesn't have much of a track record for the past few years. Lou has made it quite clear throughout his career that he has no problem starting a veteran, regardless of who is actually better. And this year Murton has not been better than Jones or Floyd...or DeRosa for that matter. So it seems Lou has been starting the better player. SLG/OPS Murton .346/.679 Jones .406/.772 Floyd .431/.774 DeRosa .494/.841

Youre right. It does give us a better chance to win. The only reason why you would go with Pie and Murton over Jones and Floyd is defense and I think right now we can use every part of offense we can get. Since when are Jones and Floyd automatic offensive improvements over Murton? They are each still sub 800 OPS OF with checkered pasts (Jones usually isn't very good and Floyd usually can't stay healthy). Lets completely ignore Murtons sub 700 OPS though. I think he's talking beyond their small sample of ABs from this year. Three year splits: Floyd: 261/347/466 Murton: 303/370/462 Floyd's number have been trending down as he's getting old. Murton is on the rise. I still fail to see how Floyd is the sure-fire better option both long-term and short-term. I don't think Floyd is a good long term solution but the more I see of Murton, the more I'm not sure he's the long term solution either. I think Lou right now is handling it about as well as can be expected given what Hendry has given him. He's even planning on getting Ward some outfield time in smaller ball parks. That isn't going to help Murton gain any more playing time. It seems the baseball people with the Cubs have cooled on Murton a lot this year. I assume they have areason for that. Yes, I'm sure the Cubs "baseball people" have had reasons for doing all the incredibly stupid things they've done over the years. Unfortunately, having a reason for doing something doesn't make it the correct thing to do. Surely we've all learned over the years to be skeptical of any reasons behind this organizations actions. Well, Lou for one, hasn't been with the Cubs for years and he's the one making out the lineup card. Why isn't Lou seeing that Murton potential? Yeah, and in 2003 Dusty hadn't been with the Cubs before and that turned out swimmingly. He had never been tainted by the Cubs organization and made all the right decisions during his tenure. Lou has never favored veterans before and is infallible when filling out lineup cards. The Cubs baseball people have changed numerous times over the past 99 years, but with extremely similar results. From the top down, this organization needs an overhaul in philosophy. If turnover in personnel doesn't change the philosophy of an organization, what will?

Youre right. It does give us a better chance to win. The only reason why you would go with Pie and Murton over Jones and Floyd is defense and I think right now we can use every part of offense we can get. Since when are Jones and Floyd automatic offensive improvements over Murton? They are each still sub 800 OPS OF with checkered pasts (Jones usually isn't very good and Floyd usually can't stay healthy). Lets completely ignore Murtons sub 700 OPS though. I think he's talking beyond their small sample of ABs from this year. Three year splits: Floyd: 261/347/466 Murton: 303/370/462 Floyd's number have been trending down as he's getting old. Murton is on the rise. I still fail to see how Floyd is the sure-fire better option both long-term and short-term. I don't think Floyd is a good long term solution but the more I see of Murton, the more I'm not sure he's the long term solution either. I think Lou right now is handling it about as well as can be expected given what Hendry has given him. He's even planning on getting Ward some outfield time in smaller ball parks. That isn't going to help Murton gain any more playing time. It seems the baseball people with the Cubs have cooled on Murton a lot this year. I assume they have areason for that. Yes, I'm sure the Cubs "baseball people" have had reasons for doing all the incredibly stupid things they've done over the years. Unfortunately, having a reason for doing something doesn't make it the correct thing to do. Surely we've all learned over the years to be skeptical of any reasons behind this organizations actions. Well, Lou for one, hasn't been with the Cubs for years and he's the one making out the lineup card. Why isn't Lou seeing that Murton potential?

Youre right. It does give us a better chance to win. The only reason why you would go with Pie and Murton over Jones and Floyd is defense and I think right now we can use every part of offense we can get. Since when are Jones and Floyd automatic offensive improvements over Murton? They are each still sub 800 OPS OF with checkered pasts (Jones usually isn't very good and Floyd usually can't stay healthy). Lets completely ignore Murtons sub 700 OPS though. I think he's talking beyond their small sample of ABs from this year. Three year splits: Floyd: 261/347/466 Murton: 303/370/462 Floyd's number have been trending down as he's getting old. Murton is on the rise. I still fail to see how Floyd is the sure-fire better option both long-term and short-term. I don't think Floyd is a good long term solution but the more I see of Murton, the more I'm not sure he's the long term solution either. I think Lou right now is handling it about as well as can be expected given what Hendry has given him. He's even planning on getting Ward some outfield time in smaller ball parks. That isn't going to help Murton gain any more playing time. It seems the baseball people with the Cubs have cooled on Murton a lot this year. I assume they have areason for that. Cubs baseball people have "good" reasons for all the silly/stupid things they do. Murton, long term, is going to be a great hitter. Not just a good hitter, a great hitter. A big part of me wants him to get his licks in now, to get comfortable with ML-caliber pitching, however, the other part wants this team to win, NOW, and the way Floyd's been producing lately it's hard to keep him out of the lineup when he's not injured. Hopefully Matt can put together a good string of AB's if he starts against the lefties this series. I really don't get where you are seeing this.

Youre right. It does give us a better chance to win. The only reason why you would go with Pie and Murton over Jones and Floyd is defense and I think right now we can use every part of offense we can get. Since when are Jones and Floyd automatic offensive improvements over Murton? They are each still sub 800 OPS OF with checkered pasts (Jones usually isn't very good and Floyd usually can't stay healthy). Lets completely ignore Murtons sub 700 OPS though. I think he's talking beyond their small sample of ABs from this year. Three year splits: Floyd: 261/347/466 Murton: 303/370/462 Floyd's number have been trending down as he's getting old. Murton is on the rise. I still fail to see how Floyd is the sure-fire better option both long-term and short-term. I don't think Floyd is a good long term solution but the more I see of Murton, the more I'm not sure he's the long term solution either. I think Lou right now is handling it about as well as can be expected given what Hendry has given him. He's even planning on getting Ward some outfield time in smaller ball parks. That isn't going to help Murton gain any more playing time. It seems the baseball people with the Cubs have cooled on Murton a lot this year. I assume they have areason for that.

Youre right. It does give us a better chance to win. The only reason why you would go with Pie and Murton over Jones and Floyd is defense and I think right now we can use every part of offense we can get. Since when are Jones and Floyd automatic offensive improvements over Murton? They are each still sub 800 OPS OF with checkered pasts (Jones usually isn't very good and Floyd usually can't stay healthy). Lets completely ignore Murtons sub 700 OPS though.

The Cubs would have a .5 game lead when June 1st rolls around if they go 16-6 while the Brewers go 10-12 the rest of May. Not impossible but I'm not betting the farm on it just yet. :lol:

I would have been willing to bet that Wuertz could have gotten out of 7th and not given up the lead as Howry did. I'd would have been willing to bet that the offense, with Murton instead of Izturiz would have scored more than the 3 they needed to get to the 10th. It's as reasonable to bet that Wuertz would have kept walking hitters as to assume he would have got out of the mess he helped to create. A reliever cannot come into a game late and walk the first hitter he faces. That's unacceptable. Yet not in the same realm of unacceptacality(it's a word, look it up) as getting pissed of at a walk and yanking a guy because of it to send a reactionary "message". We were nearly screwed in extra innings yesterday because he could've kept Wuertz in to finish the 7th, and instead he burned Wuertz, Ohman, and had Howry throw some pitches for good measure. You or anyone else (or me) does not know what might have happened if he had left Wuertz in. He might have given up 8 runs if Lou had left him in there. We'll just never know. The important thing was that Lou got the win. I'd much rather have everyone used up and win in the 10th then for it to go 14 and never use the bench. I remember a game a few years ago when Dusty gave Alou the day off and the game went into extra innings and the Cubs lost by one run with Jose Macias making the final out with Alou on deck. I don't miss those days.

Well yes frankly it is a little hard to understand. He makes the Cubs better to have in CF then to not have him in CF. Who is going to out produce him? Pie is very questionable offensively and I don't see Soriano moving back there. Plus, I don't have a whole lot of faith in Hendry getting anything of value for him. So, for everyone that wants him traded, what do you think we could get? (reasonably) Pie is only questionable cause Lou isn't find him enough at bats. Even at that, he's 9 for his last 30 and he's got the potential to be better than Jacque with the bat right now. Bottom line is, moving to Pie in center really isn't a downgrade when factoring in defense... and there's more upside there for Pie. Meanwhile, Jacque is playing better than we can reasonably expect him to for the rest of the season, and we may be well served to see what we could get for him on the open market. Nobody here is suggesting that we just ship him off to whoever wont make us pay most of the contract... but if we can get a decent offer there is absolutely no reason not to trade him. He's redundant. Well I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as Pie can produce offensively close to what Jones does. I just don't see Hendry getting much for him this early though. And I'm not convinced the Cubs wouldn't keep Jones and trade Murton.

I would have been willing to bet that Wuertz could have gotten out of 7th and not given up the lead as Howry did. I'd would have been willing to bet that the offense, with Murton instead of Izturiz would have scored more than the 3 they needed to get to the 10th. It's as reasonable to bet that Wuertz would have kept walking hitters as to assume he would have got out of the mess he helped to create. A reliever cannot come into a game late and walk the first hitter he faces. That's unacceptable.

Well yes frankly it is a little hard to understand. He makes the Cubs better to have in CF then to not have him in CF. Who is going to out produce him? Pie is very questionable offensively and I don't see Soriano moving back there. Plus, I don't have a whole lot of faith in Hendry getting anything of value for him. So, for everyone that wants him traded, what do you think we could get? (reasonably)

Two things... 1) The title of this thread makes for some disturbing thoughts... 2) Why does a lot of people want to trade Jones? He's been doing pretty good.

Fair enough. Let's see if there was one. Looking back over the inning... Washington - Top of 7th Scott Eyre pitching for Chicago K Casto flied out to left. J Wilson walked. R Belliard hit for S Hill. M Wuertz relieved S Eyre. R Belliard walked, J Wilson to second. W Ohman relieved M Wuertz. F Lopez grounded out to first, J Wilson to third, R Belliard to second. D Young hit for R Langerhans. J Jones in center field. M Murton in right field. B Howry relieved W Ohman. D Young singled to center, J Wilson and R Belliard scored. R Zimmerman struck out looking. Ohman and Wuertz were warming up to start the inning. Eyre had his troubles in the previous inning with the leadoff double and has Remlinger-like R/L splits. He faced a lefty (out) and a righty (walk) and was promptly pulled. My guess? Wuertz and Ohman were warming up in case Eyre ran into trouble with anyone. Wuertz was never going to face the lefties. If Eyre got two outs and walked Lopez, Ohman would have gone in to face Lopez and turn him around, as he was a switch hitter who was less effective from the right side and Piniella likely planned on using Ohman to turn him around. With Langerhans (lefty) in line after Lopez, he could leave Ohman on the mound for a few batters if trouble came up. Since Eyre got in trouble with Wilson (righty) and Belliard (righty) was on deck, in came Wuertz. The problem is, I don't think Lou realized that Acta would PH for Langerhans with Young (switch) or that the inning would get to Zimmerman (righty) in the first place. By the time trouble came up, he got Howry up in the pen to face the righties. The rest is history. Honestly, after all of that analysis, I don't think he did a very good job of planning ahead. I sure don't think it was some sort of fiery statement about how the bullpen should start throwing strikes or whatever. Since when does Wuertz only pitch to righties? I think had he not walked his man he would have stayed in. Eyre walked a batter and was pulled. Weurtz came in and walked a batter and was pulled. Message sent.

I agree. Jones has been fine. I think at this point I'd rather see Pie playing everyday at Iowa then as a defensive replacement/pinch runner late in the game. I'm also not in hurry to trade Jones away.

I still can't make sense of this point of view considering that Eyre came into the 6th and promptly gave up a double on the first batter. He had Wuertz and Ohman warming up at the same time. I'm convinced his plan was to use Wuertz only for a batter or two rather than the entire inning. Howry started warming up when Ohman came in, to boot. I don't think any messages were sent. I think Lou didn't have a plan in the 7th inning. I think he had a plan. I just don't think it included Eyer and Weurtz walking hitters back to back. I clearly think removing Weurtz after the walk was a message.

And he wasn't that great defensively as a 2B to begin with. I'd rather keep him in LF but it's nice to know we can use him there in a pinch.

The 9th and 10th inning drama would not have been necessary if our relievers could throw strikes. The tying and go ahead run for the Nats were both walks. Hopefully Lou's message was received by that group today.