Sammy Sofa

Zero relevance. He claimed to have some information about what it's like in the bigs. I asked him how he knew. How can anyone know what the unwritten rules of playing in the bigs other than someone who has been there? After all, the rule goes unrecorded so it is only passed down through custom and word of mouth. I'd apprecaite any inside gossip. Unbelievable. So we can't assume or infer based on anything we know or have observed in our own lives...because we haven't played in the bigs? How many times to do I have to explicitly explain what I think happened and why I think it happened? What do I have to possibly gain by making it up out of the clear blue? I've never encountered a business or organization or clique or social group period that appreciates it when a new guy that is terrible at his job/always screws up/etc. goes out of their way to attack or call out someone in that same social group who is already established and generally does very well when that person really didn't do anything wrong except kinda be a jerk. It's just one of those things...why is MLB going to be exclusive from those kinds of mentalities? If anything, it's going to be 10 times worse there because of how competitive it is. Do I know this with 100%? Of course not. I'm assuming. I think I'm pretty spot-on with this assumption. You don't see many mouthy rookies go on to long and storied careers of greatness unless their play is pretty phenomenal from the get go. So, no, I have never played in the bigs. I don't know 100% that what I'm saying is true. I don't see how that is different from the overwhelming bulk of the posts here or on any other message board. It's my opinion and I think I'm right. It doesn't MAKE me right, but I've made my case time and again as to why and how I feel in this thread, and this is what it's come to. Why? I have no clue. What was established? Beats me. Were people taking me to be some wizened inside authority into the inner workings of baseball? Somehow I highly doubt that.

In the above you pretty much say that Hill has no right to say anyting. No, I don't. I said Hill is gonna catch hell for shooting is mouth off. I didn't even come close to saying he has "no right" to say what he said, nor did I even imply he couldn't say "anything about anything." He can say whatever he wants...he's just going to get slammed right back and even harder by other people because he's a rookie, and rather poor one at that. If he wants that, hey, go ahead. I think it makes him look foolish, and his team, and it's not a smart thing to do. That's why he SHOULDN'T. We tell people they SHOULDN'T cross a street without looking both ways. Doesn't mean they can't if they don't want to.

Yes, I am pretty sure you are just making this up. Why the hell would I even want to do that?

Treating left handed pitchers like they're wonderful and rare freaks blessed by the hand of God is how someone like Glendon Rusch works as long as he has.

Look back over the history of MLB. Look at all the times you've seen rookies going out and slamming proven veteran players, in the press, at games, whatever. It rarely ever happens. Of course there are exceptions...but the general unspoken rule/sentiment/attitude/whatever is undoubtably "if you're new, prove yourself on the field, THEN take your shots." You think I'm just making this up? What possible reason could I have for doing that?

Hey, I was kinda close, at least when it came to Z's numbers! Heh, or maybe not... But really, who would have ever called this game being won by a Jacque Jones 2-run dinger off of a LH pitcher?

Yes, which he likely will appeal, as will Mabry I wonder what Derrek Lee will do if WSI is right. Will he risk being rusty by coming off the DL 5 days earlier then he would have or will he go through his regular rehab and miss 5 games. I hope to the sweet Lord above they let him do his regular rehab. This season is nowhere near risking a guy like Lee. Take the losses if need be and let him build some strength.

Nobody said that. In fact, several people went out of their way numerous times to be clear they WEREN'T saying that. Nobody said anything of the sort. You've totally distorted the entire point people like myself were arguing. It's not that cut and dry, and nobody's even come close to saying it like that. You're trying to boil this down to a simple right & wrong, black & white issue, and it's not. In the most basic terms possible, if you're going to start some crap (which Hill did since nobody else on the team was slining anything), in the world of the MLB, you need to have to be able to back that talk up with some skills on the field. It's childish, it's asinine, it's ridiculous...AND IT'S JUST HOW IT IS. That's that world. That's how the unofficial hierarchy works. You have to prove yourself before you can take shots in the press. In the context of the insane world of MLB, Hill was in the wrong. I couldn't possibly agree more.

Wow, that's so unfair to Mabry. All he's trying to do in any of the clips shown is seperate guys and Anderson starts laying haymakers on him like it's Raging Bull. So as long as this is on appeal, Barrett keeps playing, right?

Ain't that the truth. He and AJP are acting like this is the WWF.

Fine, the analogy is terrible. The pecking order exists, it's nothing new, what happened is a shining example of it in action, and I highly doubt that even if I came up with some perfect, airtight analogy any of you arguing this would concede that it does. Basic points...nobody else on the Cuns team was talking trash. Hill went out of his way to do so, right after pitching a terrible game to cap off a terrible (albeit just starting) major league pitching career. Him getting verbally slapped down by the most recent WS winning manager is not shocking, a surprise, something never before seen, or any worse than who knows how many times a crappy rookie has overstepped the vague boundaires of being "the new guy" and got burned by it. I simply don't understand why people are acting like how Ozzie responded is so terrible and Hill is some kind of hero for "sticking up for his teammate" when all he actually did is overstep his boundaries (in that NOBODY else was taking shots) and make himself and his team look foolish.

Hill and Ozzie would need to work for the same organization for this analogy to make sense. Not really. MLB being the "law firm" works fine. It's not a perfect analogy, but I think it's perfectly apt. All I'm trying to do is emphasize how the "pecking order" system that exists pretty much anywhere is magnified to the nth degree with MLB. That's why things happened they way they did. I don't feel I'm trying to defend Ozzie's actions...just trying to explain why they happened while trying to understand why some people are acting like what was said between the two is some newfound, terrible and unprecedented event.

That is a terrible sign.

You see a difference between backing up your teammates in a fight and in the press? Unfortunately, yes. I'll quote what I edited in my post above...

Says you. I wasn't aware until now that if one is a rookie they're not allowed to say or do anything to defend a teammate. How long has this "established" practice been going on? Is there some sort of level system? If you are a second year player do you get to do it once? How about if you are rookie but make the all-star team; is it ok then? Please, tell me the rules so I can make an informed judgment. Like others have said, the idea of the "social pecking order" is hardly exclusive to baseball and exists pretty much anywhere people interract with each other...it's just magnified in places like MLB because of the press, the egos and the money. If you're a new hire at a law firm, and you have routinely screwed up case after case...and one of the better senior partners does something dumb (not against the rules or illegal, just boneheaded), you don't think the kid wouldn't and shouldn't get his butt handed to him if he forwards an e-mail around to the entire firm and all their clients talking about how dumb HE thinks the senior partner was? Yes, in a perfect world, the kid did the right thing...but this is the REAL world and people are petty imperfect and don't respond well to "new guys" doing a terrible job taking very vocal shots at an established quality worker, even if the old guy maybe made a poor choice. Yet again, do *I* think this is right? No! But I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist! It's what happened with Hill and Ozzie, plain and simple. For better or for worse, Hill made a bad choice. If other players and even Barrett himself had been railing about this, sure, dive right in. But instead, he shoots off and NOBODY is doing the same, not even the guys involved!

You don't think the press asked every Cubs player they could about what happened? If Hill hadn't have said anything, his name wouldn't have been mentioned except in the recap.

You don't see the difference between the brawl on the field potentially involving anyone and everyone and then going out of your way to explicitly and specifically mouth off to the press about what happened? Please show me where Anderson did that. And for that matter, please show me where Ozzie started this little mini-battle. Hill did.

I agree 100%. But that's not how life is in the big leagues, now, then, or ever.

And if that had been the established atmosphere here, yeah, I'd get my butt handed to me for mouthing off. Everyone acting like this is somehow personal or some awful new tradition in baseball, you realize that I'm just repeatedly saying that what happened to Hill isn't over the line based on the standards of behavior within MLB baseball. AGAIN, is it right? Of course not! Is it ever going to change? Of course not! Hill now has a history of going out of his way to say stupid things AND he's a terrible starting pitcher...he's a sitting duck! Like it or not, there are informal rules as to when you fly off at the mouth to the press if you're an MLB player. Hill broke them. He got burned for it.

I still think he's not gonna miss time this year unless he's in real pain. If he is, that's a bad sign. The kind of surgery he got has ended a number of careers. He wants to play and pretty much needs to play.

Because Zambrano has the stuff to back it up. How hard is this to get across? Think about the social atmosphere of a high school gym class. Now pitcure the MLB. The 2 are the same, except the latter is even worse because of the money and egos involved. Is it right? No. Is it how it is? Yes. Will it always be this way? Bet on it. Don't pitch like an old man if you want to talk trash.

That's pretty much what happened to Wood against the Nats...throwing too many strikes.

I doubt that would be enough. There's too much rumbling on all levels of Cubdom of this being his last year here. He needs to put up a career year or damn near it to either stay here OR make the money he wants/expects with another team. He needs to play for his supper. Wood has been around enough to know the difference between "soreness" and "pain." After the surgery he's had on his shoulder, to be in enough pain to miss a start in a season when he HAS to play hard to either stay with his team or command top dollar, then he is in serious (in all definitions of the word) pain. I'd love to see him prove me wrong and stick around and be a solid or great pitcher again, but I have a feeling that his career as a starter is done within a year or two, and maybe his pitching career altogether.

I think more than that would be needed...probably Guzman and E-Patt, too.

Now I'm wondering if there really was a Chef Boyardee... Probably would be a better pitcher than Rich "Beef-A-Roni arm" Hill.