Gunned

The big picture for me is Hendry hasn't built a great team yet, and he's been awful the past two offseasons. Unlike some fans, and apparantly the Cubs management, I'm not satisfied with mediocrity. It's hard to have a great team when you build the team around dominant pitching only to have your dominant pitchers not stay healthy. Not to mention when two of your middle of the order guys can't stay on the field consistently. If Wood, Prior, and Z each make 30 starts this year and we don't win 90 games then Hendry is to blame. But until we can keep our best players on the field I don't think Hendry is entirely at fault. well maybe if hendry relied a little bit more on building a team with a top 5 OBP, we wouldn't have to rely so much on pitching. I'll take dominant pitching over top 5 OBP always. Dominant pitching wins championships not top 5 OBP. Not if it can't stay healthy. Then it probably wouldn't be classified as "dominant."

Reminds me of Patterson's hot/cold zones during MLB Gamecasts. It looked like the Northeast during the election.

I don't see the particular relevance to this discussion, but yes, I like Corey. I always found it interesting that the most sabermetrically-inclined poster on this board was named for one of the least sabermetric players (toolsy & potential, poor minor league numbers, minimal results, low OBP, etc.) in major league baseball.

I would make this trade in a HEARTBEAT. One thing no one really seems to mention when they talk about Lugo is his ability to steal bases. His numbers last year (and career numbers) for that matter, are just as good as Furcals. In fact, Lugo last year hit .314 with RISP and had a .384 OBP. Even though Baker is not much of a base stealing type of manager, he's never really had any "natural" base stealers (and lets' not call CPatt a base stealer, he looked more lost on the bases then he did at the plate). Now we can potentially have 2 (in Pierre and Lugo) to set the table for D-Lee and A-Ram. The havoc that those 2 guys can present on the base pads is something that doesn't show up on stat sheets. Getting into pitchers heads and having them lose just a "little" focus on the hitter can do wonders. Just the threat of stealing a base is enough. We would have our version of Pierre/Castillo, or Podsednik/Iguchi, Figgins/Cabrera (these are all combos that have been in the post season). Speed, it really does work everyone..... I was under the impression that the Rays wanted a few kids from the farm (Hill, etc), but for Williams and Walker, if it were me, I'd pull the trigger in a "Heartbeat"....... Oh by the way, Walker last year hit .259 with RISP and had a .293 OBP. And he can't run worth a lick, and has absolutely NO range. He is nowhere near an ideal 2 hitter......Perhaps a 6,7 or 8, but definitely not a top of the order guy. Beware of small sample sizes. Welcome to the board. Thanks for the advice, and thanks for welcoming me. As for your concern on the "small sample size", I've analyzed Lugo's numbers over his career and had a LONG drawn out debate on another board about him. If you look at Lugo's career numbers, you'll see what I'm talking about. In fact, Lugo has had a steady progression (albeit not a huge difference from year to year), but a steady upward progression nonetheless. I watch ALOT of baseball and Lugo CAN play. He certainly doesn't get the credit he deserves playing in Tampa. As for his character issues, I've been fortunate enough to have been around many ballplayers, especially Cubs, and I have so many stories about alot of these guys I wouldn't even know where to begin. Believe me, Lugo is not the only one that has had these types of issues, unfortunately for him, he's been one of the few that's been caught...... I'll post (copy and paste) some interesting stats I came up with a few weeks back on Lugo next...... Oh, this ought to be good.

I agree with you there. I'd much rather trade Walker + Hill for Lugo. I think Williams will be our third best starter this year.

I'm sure Pie would have to be included. And probably Hill, too. And for Abreu, that's just fine with me.

I can't believe he actually wrote that Baker "just wants to be loved." What is he, a puppy? Come to think of it, I had a puppy a few years ago. And the turds he left on the rug looked better than some of Dusty's lineups.

What's wrong with that? Dusty says that's the age when players hit their prime.

With that kind of package, the Cubs better be getting somebody like McClung or Banskton back in return. NO WAY is Lugo is worth more then one solid prospect, regardless of what ATL/Bos were alledgely offering. When it comes down to it, TB has to realize which has more value to their organization, 1 (more a 2nd, depending the season Lugo has) draft in the 13-20 range, or say at worst 2 solid prospects. Because if they don't trade Lugo, then they will lost a "bidding partner" in the Cubs, cause I feel Cedeno is going to be VERY GOOD this yr. http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp.cgi?I=perezne01:Neifi+Perez&st=int&compage=25&age=25 We could get Cintron---who is slightly better player thru age 25 then Lugo was---prolly for Welly and Perez (the kid we got for Patterson). Lugo is worth what Tampa can get for him. I'm not sold on getting him, but it will definitely take such a package to get the Rays attention. Yeah, but unlike alot teams who are interested in Lugo, the Cubs do have a LEGITIMATE SS (Cedeno) and a LEGITIMATE 2B (Walker, and to a certain degree Hairston), so the Cubs don't have offer more then say Moore and Welly. I don't think we can say just yet that Cedeno is completely legit. I think he could be very good, and I want him to start, but he's only had 80 big league at bats.

So you're saying we should have given Corey another chance, then. No, because Corey was "off" for five of his six seasons in the major leagues. Corey played in all of 11 games in 2000 following a SL Championship in West Tennessee. You call 11 games a "season"? OK. Fine. He was "off" for four of his five years in the big leagues.

So you're saying we should have given Corey another chance, then. No, because Corey was "off" for five of his six seasons in the major leagues.

Man, what's with the hyperbole today? First ALL of the blame for Corey falls on the Cubs, and now Julio Lugo has been BAD throughout his career?

Definitely.

The most similar situation I can think of to Corey's in recent times is Pat Burrell in 2003. He was a former blue-chip prospect who had had some success in the bigs, but had a simply dreadful year, looked awful doing it and the fans booed him mercilessly (it is Philly, afterall). At that time, Philly could have dumped him for next to nothing (his contract was much worse than Corey's) and used all the same excuses that the Cubs just have used. Time to move on, change of scenery, trying to compete this year, blah, blah, blah. Pat the Bat has come back pretty well and I think Philly is pretty happy they showed the patience in him at this point. I just don't understand why people insist that it is absolutely impossible that Corey could ever come back and do well in Chicago. It is impossible to know. Burrell had a lot more success than Corey before his one truly awful year, including a 37 homer, .920 OPS season. And he had several solid years before that. Patterson has played about four months of good baseball in the major leagues. And even Burrell's bad season (209/309/404) wasn't nearly as bad as what Patterson did in 2005.

ALL of the blame? I think Corey was handled improperly, but it's become pretty clear that while Corey is a talented athlete, he's not a talented baseball player.

Mmm. Draft picks galore. :D How's that '02 draft looking? :) David Weathers? Brownlie, Hagerty, Clanton, Sisco, Dopirak.... This is just barely related, but I found it interesting. Posted today on another Cubs board, after Patterson was traded: Ugh.

But, if you honestly wanted to move Prior, wouldn't it make more sense to open up the bidding for his services to the other 29 teams in the league rather than just the Orioles, who don't seem to be giving Prior the respect he deserves? What would other teams pay for a guy who has #1 stuff? Would Phily give up Abreu, who basically is as good or better than Tejada at a position on the field that the Cubs have a much bigger hole? As bad as Jacque Jones is, that's arguable. The Cubs corner OF hole is still bigger than the SS hole. Well, gee, maybe it's not. My mistake.

But, if you honestly wanted to move Prior, wouldn't it make more sense to open up the bidding for his services to the other 29 teams in the league rather than just the Orioles, who don't seem to be giving Prior the respect he deserves? What would other teams pay for a guy who has #1 stuff? Would Phily give up Abreu, who basically is as good or better than Tejada at a position on the field that the Cubs have a much bigger hole? As bad as Jacque Jones is, that's arguable.

It just doesn't make any sense for Hendry to sign Jones for three years, say he wants to keep Pierre long-term, and then refuse to trade Pie away. Then again, it's Hendry.

is that why you post in them??? snap! Hmm. Sure.

These threads are always so worthwhile.

His little brother needs to hit more like his older brother did during his ascent to the majors. And then the older brother needs to actually hit once he reaches the majors.

Well, look at the bright side: At least we didn't overpay for Rafael Furcal.

Didnt they say Neifi was only back-up when he signed in 2004? ... I dont really expect one of Dusty's boys to only get the back-up. How can Grissom be one of Dusty's boys when he's never played for him?

Thanks.