MeatampPotatoesMan

So what is your solution??? Never call up a pitcher since even when we give them innings in the minors they're still mediocre? You're all over the place here. Yeah, like Mitre, Koronka, Wellemeyer, etc. When did I ever imply we shouldn't call pitchers up? I said they shouldn't be called up until they are ready, which means seeing them pitch (i.e. logging innings). You use that time to evaluate them. Mitre and Koronka were obviously going to be mediocre fill ins for guys on the DL. I have no problem with their call ups. We didn't expect them to stick. Wellemeyer showed his spotty control in the minors which continued in the majors. no surprise there, but if you hadn't let him log the innings, you probably wouldn't have seen that. You might have seen Jekyll or Hyde depending on what day you decided to evaluate him. Saying someone doesn't deserve a callup doesn't = no one should be called up unless they have the innings. I did cite players like Prior, did I not? If Marshall is just a short term call up and gets rocked, all we did is delay his development and destroy his confidence. That's a pretty risky move considering the state of our farm system. We're going to need homegrown SP in the near future as Prior, Z, and Lee all get pay increases (not to mention Pierre if we keep him). I like our more aggressive approach to promoting players, but it backfires, e.g. Patterson. This is a far more aggressive promotion with a far less talented player. Not a good idea.

Same here. I don't think he's a significant enough of an upgrade over Ronny to trade for. Will you feel differently when Neifi outplays Ronny and takes his job?

The difference is those teams can afford to take on such a bad bat. The Cubs can't afford a black hole like Neifi in their already weak lineup. Boston has major holes in their lineup also. They're awful at SS,3B, and RF. And they're not overly strong at first. A platoon of Nixon and Pena is going to own. Hole plugged for the low low price of Arroyo. 8) Alex Gonzalez is better in a down year than Neifi is in a career year. Some holes are deeper than others.

If Cedeno can't earn a job based on one good year, why can Neifi earn the job by default based off of several terrible years? No one has argued that Neifi deserves the starting SS job. It's a travesty that he's even in line for it b/c we placed a kid with limited offensive success in the starter's role.

That didn't work with Corey Patterson. Giving someone playing time does not insure progress. You are correct. It won't guarantee a thing. But sitting him on the bench won't do a thing for him either. Stick him out there and see what what happens. But, just because sticking Corey Patterson out there everyday in spite of his struggles didn't do a thing for him doesn't mean it can't work out for Cedeno. Someone brought up Sandberg's struggles in his first major league stint. Should Lee Elia have sent Sandberg packing and replaced him with Keith Moreland or Pat Tabler when he went 1 for his first 30? Because the Cubs don't have "better" options to stick at SS, I think you have to see what you really have in Cedeno by letting him play everyday. Maybe if the Cubs organization didn't send Cedeno to AAA in favor of Enrique Wilson last year, we might have a better idea of what kind of player Cedeno might be in the major leagues. Stupid decisions like this is why they are in this position right now of not knowing what they really have at SS. There were SS's available this offseason. Julio Lugo and Edgar Renteria come to mind. They passed because they felt Cedeno could adequately do the job. They made that bed, now they have to lie in it. It's going to be a long season if they give up on Cedeno prematurely to go with the "known" production of one Neifi Perez. I totally agree. My problem isn't with Cedeno as a player, it's with the organization who failed to develop him properly before tossing him in the fire. We had options in the offseason and now we're locked into Cedeno/Neifi at SS barring a trade. This isn't a good situation to be in, but we're in it. Go Ronny.

Were they drunk?

A struggling Cedeno at least offers the chance for success in the future, which could be the very near future. Neifi only guarantees failure, because he's done it so often and for so long, we know he's not a capable starting major league baseball player. Even if Cedeno is performing below what you would expect for Neifi, you have to give him plenty of time to possibly get back over the Neifi line, which shouldn't be that hard. You don't lock yourself into no produciton (Neifi) if you have the opportunity to get much greater production. The problem isn't that Cedeno sucks. Neifi sucks for his age and experience. Cedeno just needs time in the minors. It's pathetic that we're looking to have Neifi as our everyday SS. We all new this was coming. Either Dusty would play one of his favorite vets, or Cedeno would tank all on his own (highly likely IMO, given his minor league history) and put Neifi in there by default. Great idea Hendry. Awesome job.

If ST numbers are meaningless, Marshall is sent to the minors and not given the 4 spot in the rotation. Cedeno doesn't deserve a starting job based on one good year (mostly in the minors or the WL equivalent) anyway considering that he was an offensive black hole beforehand. Cedeno is going to magically learn how to take a pitch? With our coaches? That's a huge handicap right there. Either you have good plate discipline like Murton before you come up to our big league club, or you don't develop it. Ronny's going to have a rough time this year. Ronny's K/BB ratio was horrible until his stint in AAA (245 AB). It looks like he's reverted to form in the VWL and in ST. Dusty doesn't throw people under the bus, even if he is an excuse maker for his team's performance.

He won't bat second. It looks like Hairston/Walker is batting 2nd if the recent ST lineups are an indicator of things to come.

Yes, because we've all seen exactly how similar Corey Patterson and Ronny Cedeno are. And? It's no given that constant playing time = ML success. How many thousands of major leaguers fit that statement historically? You have to earn your spot. Half a season in AAA, some AB down in the VWL (his K/BB ratio was horrible) which is the equivalent of maybe AA ball competition wise, and 80 ML ABs where none of the pitchers he faced knew his holes...all that success warrants a starting job in Chicago? He was an offensive joke before last season. Corey had more minor league success and flat out talent than Cedeno will ever have.

If Ronny and Neifi have the offensive and defensive performances you suggest, it would be obvious that Neifi belongs in the lineup over Ronny. I think what people who are in favor of Ronny believe that his weak spring training numbers don't represent what his actual performance will be in the regular season. ~20 games in spring training don't showcase someone's performance as much as 65 games in AAA and an entire winter league. Not to mention 41 games in the MLB with an average of .300. (Yes, small sample size, but no smaller than ST.) Dubois had an OPS of .833 in his first 80 ML AB (Cedeno has 80 ML AB). Word gets out about your holes and you have to adjust. Ronny hasn't hit that point of adjustment yet.

That didn't work with Corey Patterson. Giving someone playing time does not insure progress.

I was asking you a question. I'm still trying to figure out what it means. Better players generally get more money come FA.

It's a fact that players become better when you pay them more? How do you get that out of my statement?

That's a load of crap. There are some pretty bad SS in the ML, and none in our price range are a "significant" improvement (since you brought up payroll). Lugo is an older Cedeno. Renteria is overrated and too expensive. Tejada would have cost way too much. Who else was available? Alex Gonzalez Price range? We were willing to pay Furcal nearly 10M/year.

He absolutely did by looking at the alternative. Cedeno struggling = Neifi. How does that mean Cedeno deserves a starting job on a 100M team? Neifi's presence is irrelevant. The payroll of this team should be irrelevant, too. Why? It directly effects what players you can and cannot afford. Whether your team payroll is 10 million or 100 million, your best players should play. Period. Not your highest-paid. No one is making that argument. It's a simple fact that you can get better players by paying more once they reach a certain service level.

And the alternative was? Aside from drastically overpaying for Furcal, who else was out there to provide for a significant upgrade at SS? Lugo? Renteria? Tejada? Every other option was highly overrated, way too expensive, or both. A significant upgrade over Cedeno/Neifi? Just about any ML SS qualifies as a significant upgrade.

He absolutely did by looking at the alternative. Cedeno struggling = Neifi. How does that mean Cedeno deserves a starting job on a 100M team? Neifi's presence is irrelevant. The payroll of this team should be irrelevant, too. Why? It directly effects what players you can and cannot afford.

If I remember correctly he got an outright release from colorado...How does a guy who couldn't make the Rockies get a 2 year deal with us? This was went over at length during the offseason, but Neifi's offensive #'s were average for a National League SS last year. The thing that makes me mad about the whole ordeal is that Hendry did nothing to solidify the SS position and is now stuck with potentially two players that can't hit. Here's to hoping that Cedeno is just in a funk right now and will turn it on once the season starts. Otherwise, I couldn't fault Dusty for benching him, just wish Dusty had a better option than Neifi. I totally agree.

He absolutely did by looking at the alternative. Cedeno struggling = Neifi. How does that mean Cedeno deserves a starting job on a 100M team? Neifi's presence is irrelevant.

With Neifi you know what you're going to get - above average D and low OBP. That's actually way better than Cedeno's performance right now, who is sucking it up defensively and killing himself at the plate. If he wasn't playing such shoddy D, he'd get a longer leash. I can't really blame Dusty for this. Cedeno really didn't deserve the starting job at 2B/SS based on one good offensive year in the minors and the VWL plus 80 ML AB.

What starting pitchers have we promoted that stuck? Zambrano and Prior? Prior was a gimme out of college. We did great with Z. Z spent his time in the minors. What pitcher have the Chicago Cubs promoted within the last 10 years (other than Prior) has been called up with so few innings above A ball? There is none. Our record with calling up pitchers in general with the work in is mediocre at best (Koronka, Mitre, Hill, Wellemeyer, etc). So why should any reasonable human being believe that our system has correctly evaluated Marshall as ML ready? You can't tell how good someone is without seeing them pitch or putting up the numbers. To do that you have to log the innings.

It's all dependent on the pitcher. Most of these guys are scouted by many organizations. When it's the super majority of scouts' opinions that someone is ML ready out of college, I'd go with that. Promoting someone on stats alone is absurd. Oakland doesn't do that, no matter what Moneyball implies to some people. IP is a great indicator of how resilient and healthy a pitcher is (assuming we're not comparing apples to oranges, RPs to SPs). I'm pretty sure Atlanta uses that very basic stat with a high degree of confidence and frequency, especially in regards to Smoltz and Glavine's latest contracts. Scouts take all sorts of stuff, stats, stuff, makeup, potential, etc to determine whether someone is ML ready (or just evaluating a player in general). Subjective? Yes. But you can cut down on that by using multiple independent scouts. When they overwelmingly come back with the same opinion on readiness, go with it. My distrust for Marshall's promotion has to do with our scouts and organization's success history in promoting pitchers. Prior was the only guy we promoted as quickly as Marshall (IP above A ball) that stuck. Everyone else had to do their time in the minors, working out issues as they progressed through the system. I hope that our org. is finally right about this. History isn't with them, but for Marshall's sake (and ours), I hope he dominates. Prove me wrong. I'd love it.

nicely spotted. He was also another pitcher (RP instead of SP, which accounts for some of the innings) ML ready out of college. He'd also logged 57.0 innings at U of Texas the same year he was in the minors, so he didn't need the work. Just out of curiosity, what makes a pitcher "ML ready out of college" in your opinion? It's not really my opinion. It's the opinion of the majority of scouts. Numbers help too. Prior was widely touted as ML ready out of college by every scout I've ever heard of. Street was one of the best college closers of all time. That points toward ML readiness to me, but it's not conclusive. The numbers were there in college and the minors and Oakland loves those numbers. It's kind of a different system over there, so maybe "ML ready" shouldn't really apply to his case just b/c of the org. he is in and their promotion philosophy.

He was also another pitcher (RP instead of SP, which accounts for some of the innings) ML ready out of college. He'd also logged 57.0 innings at U of Texas the same year he was in the minors, so he didn't need the work. You made up the rules, I just supplied an answer. Marshall did go to college. Would you assign the MLB jobs based on IPs? If only Wally Pipp had stayed healthy. :D I wouldn't assign jobs based on IPs. That kind of defeats the ML ready tag.