Blueheart05

hermanson was a random member of the staff who happened to pitch in the ninth inning. he had a nice shiny era, but he's nothing special. wood and prior are -- or at least they would be, in my opinion, if we hadn't already run them into the ground. Hermanson was acquired to be that team's closer, he wasn't someone who pitched in the 7th or 8th inning only to later work into the closer role. I think you just want to argue because my point was never to compare or add value to any individual pitcher's worth on the team. I merely made a point about a pitcher who was mishandled on the Sox staff. IMO, Phil Rogers only mentions points that support his argument. Obviously, Prior and Wood mean a lot more to the Cubs than Hermanson does to the White Sox (especially since they have Jenks as plan B). Next!

He's spare parts no matter how they label him. He was one of a few fallback options for the job going into 2005. It's a huge difference than Wood and Prior. That's not the point; he was a pitcher who was misused on the staff. is there a reason you refuse to acknowledge that you might want to be a little more careful with guys like wood and prior than guys like hermanson, or do you just hate the white sox so much that you twist your arguments around the idea of finding something that makes them look bad? I think you need to reread this thread. This is about how Phil Rogers praises Guillen and disses Baker. I'm not putting any extra value in starting pitchers versus relievers/closers. My point is that some people fail to remember that Harmanson was mishandled and as a result, he is reinjured. :roll: hermanson was mishandled + all the good pitchers were handled well = net positive all the good pitchers are mishandled + somebody lame like novoa or something was handled well = enormous negative ps-ROLLEYES IS LAME No, what's lame is assuming you know my motivation for a post. I don't "hate" the White Sox. If the article wasn't comparing the two teams I wouldn't have mentioned them.- P.S. Novoa is a random member of the staff. Hermanson was their closer.

He's spare parts no matter how they label him. He was one of a few fallback options for the job going into 2005. It's a huge difference than Wood and Prior. That's not the point; he was a pitcher who was misused on the staff. is there a reason you refuse to acknowledge that you might want to be a little more careful with guys like wood and prior than guys like hermanson, or do you just hate the white sox so much that you twist your arguments around the idea of finding something that makes them look bad? I think you need to reread this thread. This is about how Phil Rogers praises Guillen and disses Baker. I'm not putting any extra value in starting pitchers versus relievers/closers. My point is that some people fail to remember that Hermanson was mishandled and as a result, he is reinjured. :roll: Why is this different than what the Cubs have done? I certainly didn't say I agreed with Baker's mishandlings.

True, but I think he deserves credit for giving the Dusty the benefit of the doubt, but not forever. His last sentence in this morning's column synthesized the issue very well - Guillen's SPs through more than 120 pitches 5 times all of last year. Guillen understands how to manage his assets; Dusty does not. Well said. Before we start giving Guillen the "credit" he doesn't deserve let's also remember that he pitched an injured Hermanson in the playoffs (and at various times during the season) and now he's injured again this Spring. Why didn't the wise Ozzie know that Dustin needed to be shut down (for that matter, why didn't Herm Schneider)? Herm Schneider is one of the best trainers in baseball. The Sox shut down Hermanson for at least the last third of the season. If you ask Dustin, he probably wanted to pitch rather badly in the WS, even if that furthered his injury. Backs flare up and I doubt his pitching an inning or two in the WS is the cause of his condition right now. Schneider's value is subjective. They got lucky with Jenks who allowed Hermanson the opportunity to sit for a while. However, they used Hermanson when they knew he wasn't 100%. Players will generally risk their health to get into big games. It's up to the team to monitor them. How can you definitively say that the extra workload last year had no bearing on his current injury status? He is complaining of the same injured back. Your reasoning means that we can't assume that Prior's injury has anything to do with his previous workload...

He's spare parts no matter how they label him. He was one of a few fallback options for the job going into 2005. It's a huge difference than Wood and Prior. That's not the point; he was a pitcher who was misused on the staff.

I don't want to pretend Ozzie is some genius at taking care of pitchers. But there's a big difference between abusing a guy like Harmanson, and guys like Wood and Prior. Hermanson is spare parts. If he goes down, so be it. It's like Rusch. He isn't spare parts on their team, he is their closer. Jenks bailed them out last year but before Hermannson's latest injury popped up Guillen publically said, again, that Hermannson was his closer (even though Jenks got the important saves last year).

True, but I think he deserves credit for giving the Dusty the benefit of the doubt, but not forever. His last sentence in this morning's column synthesized the issue very well - Guillen's SPs through more than 120 pitches 5 times all of last year. Guillen understands how to manage his assets; Dusty does not. Well said. Before we start giving Guillen the "credit" he doesn't deserve let's also remember that he pitched an injured Hermanson in the playoffs (and at various times during the season) and now he's injured again this Spring. Why didn't the wise Ozzie know that Dustin needed to be shut down (for that matter, why didn't Herm Schneider)?

Or maybe the Cubs did a poor job of introducing him slowly to a major league workload, and he would have been fine if he wasn't among the league leaders in pitches thrown so early in his careerm, and wasn't left out there for 120+ pitches so often. Agreed. IIRC, there is actually a fair amount of research showing that it's not necessarily number of pitches in a vacuum, but the suddenness with which a pitcher jumps from few to many pitches, whether over the course of a season or in an individual game. Again, while I think the Cubs organization handles just about anything regarding public relations horrendously (esp. forthcomingness on injuries), I'm going to withhold worry until he misses starts. Remember last year -- this whole scenario played out in a similar way, yet he only missed 1 start at the beginning of the season. He was rolling along just fine until the line drive. Exactly! We have been here before. I am not going to get too excited until I hear he is going to miss time (significant or not). Last year they could not find a source for his aliments...

Good question. The players may have to sign waviers.

That's a standard law (HIPAA). Your employer can't do it either Although there's some question about how that works in the sports world, where information is released all the time, presumably not always with the player's consent. This law covers the the sports world. Medical information that is leaked is usually done anonymously. It is a violation of HIPAA (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996) because the assumption is that the information was optained by someone with access to medical records. If the source was disclosed, the person would face prosecution. I realize it's covered in theory, but my point is it happens all the time and there's never any hint of prosecution. Occasionally an agent will complain if it happens during contract negotiations, but that's about it. There is little recourse if the agent doesn't know the source of the leak (he/she can assume it was the team but without proof the person is at risk for making slanderous comments).

That's a standard law (HIPAA). Your employer can't do it either Although there's some question about how that works in the sports world, where information is released all the time, presumably not always with the player's consent. This law covers the the sports world. Medical information that is leaked is usually done anonymously. It is a violation of HIPAA (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996) because the assumption is that the information was optained by someone with access to medical records. If the source was disclosed, the person would face prosecution. Edit: Technically employers are not covered under HIPAA but for companies that provide group health plans (insurance in excess of 5M) there is no seperation. If a trainer, coach, HR Rep, etc receives medical information related to an individual's medical status he/she is forced to keep that information private unless the patient agrees to make it public.

That's a standard law (HIPAA). Your employer can't do it either

Stupid? I think so. But not that stupid. As I've already said, it was a very different situation. They believed that Kerry wasn't going to injure his shoulder any further by pitching. They also kept him in there because they believed he could help them in the wild card race. With Prior, making him pitch when they know he's injured would not help their playoff chances. Quite the opposite. And pitching while injured would most definitely risk further and more serious injury. But note the difference in the two situations: Kerry pitched live regular season games that mattered; Prior didn't even face one spring training opposing hitter. So for you to say that they both "pitched while injured" is deceiving. This spring's handling of Prior does suggest that the Cubs held him back in attempts to see if he could make progress with his injury through pitching and treatments from trainer Mark O'Neal: "We've been treating him for basically normal symptoms that everybody has when they throw." To me, this suggests that they didn't feel his discomfort was anything out of the ordinary. Again, Prior has complained of pain in the past only to have multiple tests (and doctors) unable to find a problem. I'm very curious to find out what Dr. Yocum has to say... Did you expect O'Neal to rat out his boss? If he said "no comment" suspicions would be aroused, so he made a very generic and vague statement. Perhaps he conveniently forgot to mention that Prior has the same symptoms as everybody has when they throw, only Prior has them a lot worse. That's fine and dandy but I don't buy into the conspiracy theory. We'll see what the independent specialist has to say.

Or that the man has a low threshold for pain... I'm not saying he's weak or anything negative but people do deal with pain differently. The last time Prior had serious pain the Cubs sent him to their specialist and the results were normal. He was later examined by an independent specialist, of his own choosing, and the results were normal. IIRC, he made some comment last year about probably having to deal with pain every Spring Training...

Stupid? I think so. But not that stupid. As I've already said, it was a very different situation. They believed that Kerry wasn't going to injure his shoulder any further by pitching. They also kept him in there because they believed he could help them in the wild card race. With Prior, making him pitch when they know he's injured would not help their playoff chances. Quite the opposite. And pitching while injured would most definitely risk further and more serious injury. But note the difference in the two situations: Kerry pitched live regular season games that mattered; Prior didn't even face one spring training opposing hitter. So for you to say that they both "pitched while injured" is deceiving. This spring's handling of Prior does suggest that the Cubs held him back in attempts to see if he could make progress with his injury through pitching and treatments from trainer Mark O'Neal: "We've been treating him for basically normal symptoms that everybody has when they throw." To me, this suggests that they didn't feel his discomfort was anything out of the ordinary. Again, Prior has complained of pain in the past only to have multiple tests (and doctors) unable to find a problem. I'm very curious to find out what Dr. Yocum has to say...

A friend spreading false injury rumors would be pretty unnerving. Either way, your case is pretty speculative. It seems more plausible that the team was less than forthcoming, especially in light of the very slow pace the Cubs took with him. The team would have more reason to shut him down. I don't know how people can continue to blame the team when the player is echoing their sentiments (if not defending them). BTW,everyone here is speculating. It might be speculation, but it's beyond a reasonable doubt type speculation given the track record of lies. BTW, they did shut Prior down. That's why he was throwing simulated-simulated games with a towel. Sorry, I don't know what else to call a "simulated" game that takes place among other simulated spring training games. Sub-simulated games? Penultimate simu-games? :? Towel drills are a common arm strength building technique. The Cubs had not shut him down before now. He was always pitching to build strength. If we're to believe that there were lies why aren't we willing to believe that Prior is at the center? Afterall, he had been saying all along that he was fine. If we are to believe that the team has a hidden agenda (ticket sales for instance) for not making this issue public earlier then I'd like to know what Prior's motivation is for going along with the ruse? He would be jeopardizing his future. Like I said, he probably had some level of discomfort initially but ignored it figuring it was all apart of the normal rigors of ST. I think today's revelation was Prior feeling like the pain was bad enough to have a doctor checkit out. Or perhaps Prior and the Cubs thought his injury was something that wasn't serious enough to warrant a specialist's opinion, and that it would not stop him from starting the season. Prior's motivation for going along with the organization could have been because he doesn't want to promote the injury prone title that's he's already been called. Basically, they took a wait-and-see approach and didn't want to make public Prior's injury until necessary. That is very possible and I don't blame them if that's the case.

LOL! :lol:

A friend spreading false injury rumors would be pretty unnerving. Either way, your case is pretty speculative. It seems more plausible that the team was less than forthcoming, especially in light of the very slow pace the Cubs took with him. The team would have more reason to shut him down. I don't know how people can continue to blame the team when the player is echoing their sentiments (if not defending them). BTW,everyone here is speculating. It might be speculation, but it's beyond a reasonable doubt type speculation given the track record of lies. BTW, they did shut Prior down. That's why he was throwing simulated-simulated games with a towel. Sorry, I don't know what else to call a "simulated" game that takes place among other simulated spring training games. Sub-simulated games? Penultimate simu-games? :? Towel drills are a common arm strength building technique. The Cubs had not shut him down before now. He was always pitching to build strength. If we're to believe that there were lies why aren't we willing to believe that Prior is at the center? Afterall, he had been saying all along that he was fine. If we are to believe that the team has a hidden agenda (ticket sales for instance) for not making this issue public earlier then I'd like to know what Prior's motivation is for going along with the ruse? He would be jeopardizing his future. Like I said, he probably had some level of discomfort initially but ignored it figuring it was all apart of the normal rigors of ST. I think today's revelation was Prior feeling like the pain was bad enough to have a doctor checkit out. Because the media caught wind of this weeks ago, and the Cubs deliberately squelched it. Hendry deliberately squelched it, if you remember. That's why Prior is not the source of the lie. And on the Towel: you are right, but I've never seen "healthy" pitchers use the towel drill in spring training to build strength while other healthy pitchers are throwing in games. Only rehabbing, injured pitchers do this. I don't buy the idea that "Hendry squelched" the rumors. Prior has been asked repeatedly about his health and he has always answered in the affirmative. BTW, I'm not saying Prior lied either (I was playing devil's advocate before). I think Prior assumed that his earlier discomfort was normal. Today he decided that the pain was too much to go unchecked. Healthy pitchers do use towel drills. Prior uses one before every game.

A friend spreading false injury rumors would be pretty unnerving. Either way, your case is pretty speculative. It seems more plausible that the team was less than forthcoming, especially in light of the very slow pace the Cubs took with him. The team would have more reason to shut him down. I don't know how people can continue to blame the team when the player is echoing their sentiments (if not defending them). BTW,everyone here is speculating. It might be speculation, but it's beyond a reasonable doubt type speculation given the track record of lies. BTW, they did shut Prior down. That's why he was throwing simulated-simulated games with a towel. Sorry, I don't know what else to call a "simulated" game that takes place among other simulated spring training games. Sub-simulated games? Penultimate simu-games? :? Towel drills are a common arm strength building technique. The Cubs had not shut him down before now. He was always pitching to build strength. If we're to believe that there were lies why aren't we willing to believe that Prior is at the center? Afterall, he had been saying all along that he was fine. If we are to believe that the team has a hidden agenda (ticket sales for instance) for not making this issue public earlier then I'd like to know what Prior's motivation is for going along with the ruse? He would be jeopardizing his future. Like I said, he probably had some level of discomfort initially but ignored it figuring it was all apart of the normal rigors of ST. I think today's revelation was Prior feeling like the pain was bad enough to have a doctor checkit out.

A friend spreading false injury rumors would be pretty unnerving. Either way, your case is pretty speculative. It seems more plausible that the team was less than forthcoming, especially in light of the very slow pace the Cubs took with him. The team would have more reason to shut him down. I don't know how people can continue to blame the team when the player is echoing their sentiments (if not defending them). BTW,everyone here is speculating.

Haha, not everyone here is in panic mode troll.

I disagree with this argument 100%. What did the Cubs draw pre-98? And what was their highest selling year? '04, when playoff expectations were at a peak. The Cubs haven't gone more than 2 years since '98 without fielding a winning or playoff team (98, 01, 03, 04). A few more years like last year - maybe just one or two more - and all of a sudden it mightn't be so hard to get Wrigley tix again. There's often a few years lag between the onset of losing and an associated drop in attendance (see Chicago Blackhawks - remember the roar?). I'm not saying the Cubs must have known Prior was hurt before tix went on sale. But it's certainly not implausible. But we aren't talking about the future ticket sales, we're talking about this year. Whether Prior was hurt or not, the Cubs were going to sell tickets, lots and lots of them. Will Carroll's source on Prior's shoulder problem also tipped him off about the Achilles, so it's hard to believe this was just a lucky guess on Carroll's part. You can argue about why the Cubs lie, but it's plain that they do in fact lie. He may be injured but this doesn't prove that the team lied. What did the Cubs gain by waiting if they knew Prior was injured 2-3 weeks ago? Absolutely nothing. Cubs tickets went on sale Feb 24 (almost 3 weeks ago). If ensuring ticket sales was the goal, the Cubs could have dropped this bomb a week after they broke the one day ticket sales record. Carroll's story broke on 2/20 yet on 2/18 Prior is quoted as saying he was feeling good: On 2/21 Prior responded to the Carroll rumor: The possibility that Prior may have been withholding information from the team, about a potential injury, is the most plausible way to validate Carroll's claims. Perhaps he was experiencing discomfort that he expected to go away until finally he felt like he needed to address it. Afterall, Carroll said it was someone close to Prior that tipped it off. Prior's quote on 2/23 is a little suspicious. Instead of continuing to deny that anyone close to him could make claims about an injury he admitted to being "unnerved" that someone within his inner circle might leak the info... Why would he be unnerved if it's not true? If Prior was in fact injured when he came to camp he kept it to himself.

Disgusting! In that spot he should have taken a pitch to see if he could have gotten a 3-1 count. :roll:

Now the bases are loaded on a walk...

Tejada bobbles the potential final out of the game. :D