CubRock2

As I said before, MLB has suspended pitchers for throwing at batters - whether or not they hit the batter. They also just suspended Joe Torre for a game after Randy Johnson hit a batter - even though it's very clear that Johnson took it upon himself to throw at the batter. Guillen ordered his pitcher to hit a batter. How is that not worth a suspension when a pitcher throwing at a batter is worth one? Yeah, something's wrong with baseball's policy here. Did the Cleveland manager and pitcher get suspended for starting it? Guillen's actions were far more incredulous than Torre's (if he even took action).

I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize him. I'm saying this is going overboard. I myself even said I thought Ozzie was wrong. It's fine to criticize him, but calling him trash just seems a bit excessive.

This is what I'm talking about, it's a contradiction. I believe he's saying that Jim has problems working with dusty. In other words, that the poor makeup of the team is Dusty's fault rather than Jim's. Yes, that's what I was trying to say.

Again, there's absolutely no excuse for MLB not suspending Guillen after he makes those comments and behaves the way he did in the dugout. I can understand a fine, but not a suspension. He was angry, but he could have done much worse. No water coolers were hurt, were they? :D Seriously, he could have actually ordered another "hit," and then I'm sure his suspension would be huge taking into account the measures he went to make sure it happened. If MLB started fining and suspending managers for saying inappropriate things, then Dusty would be fined on a weekly basis.

I don't think Ozzie really cares. He's a jock doing his job, and I don't think he's trying to win baseball games, not cultivate a culture. I grew up watching Bob Knight throw basketball chairs and Coach K berate refs... doesn't mean I do the same when I coach as an adult. I think most people can separate that.

But I'm not just looking at him. His production has dropped some recently, and he's been frequently hurt the last 6-8 years.

Good thought. Isn't Bobby too in love with Japan to leave, though?

I didn't criticize Henry. I said the combination of the 3 was a failure.

Since I'm trashing a former Sox great, I figures this thought goes here. No facts, just speculating. I want to be clear from the get-go. How many injuries has he had the last 6-8 years? How freaking massive is he? I know he always has, but you don't think that was a possibility while he was in Collged, during the McGwire/Canseco boom? Isn't his head massive, too, which is allegedly typical of abusers? I'm not providing any rock-solid evidence here, but if "good" players like Pujols and Sweeney can be trashed around, why not the Big Wuss? He seems to have avoided this discussion all together, and Sox fans can't even contemplate the possibility. Has this thought passed through anyone elses mind?

If you don't think these people are accountable, this thread isn't for you. It's pretty obvious that the combination Hendry/Dusty/Larry aren't getting the job done. With another wave of young talent coming up (Pie/Murton/Ronny/Marshall/Marmol, etc) a strong veteral core and pen(DLee/Barrett/Z/Eyre/Dempster/Howry), a lot of trading capital (Prior/Wood/Pierre/Ramirez/Jones) and some cap room coming up for FA (Carlos Lee!), now is a great time to start fresh. I'm not delusional enough to believe this will actually happen, but just want to daydream about what comination would be perfect for this team. My GM: Hendry. It's hard to work with a guy who needs 18 2B and refuses to take any responsibiltiy. My Manager: Art Howe. We missed the boat on Jim Leyland, but still think his ability to work with young players and pitchers is something this team needs. He got a terrible rep in NY with some spoiled players and terrible signings, but think he could do well with Jim here. My Pitching Coach: Steve Stone/Terry Rooney. Sure, Mazzone would have been perfect, but he's not going anywhere now. The man is just a genius. I don't know if he has coaching skills, but how many people are more respected and intelligent. Since Hendry won't hire him, I'd like to look at Rooney. He's the PC at Notre Dame, which has pumped out some great pitchers from an average program. Sure, its' a long shot, but I like it! What do you think would be the best combo for the Cubs?

Could you imagine Joe Morgan and Dusty in the booth together. I mean, isn't Dusty the sort of player-loved, vanilla, baseball lifer that ESPN loves? Joe Morgan actually gave himself credit today for thinking that Ortiz was "taking off" after a terrific 2002 in Minnesota, saying they were terribly stupid for releasing him. Then he said that he thought somebody would be a good leader for this team, and "I was right." "Dude, you're a baseball genius."

Dude, jus chill. Or do trailor parks not have a/c. :D

It's just a bad situation all-together. If AJP hadn't been plunked twice - clearly intentionally - then the Sox wouldn't "have" to retaliate. How many times in the last few years have the we been in beaning wars with the Astros and Cards. Mainly it was Prior, Wood, and Z (since they're the only ones who throw hard in the division), and I loved it. You root for your guys to knock the others on their butt. When (what's his name) hit Sosa back in '04, I still dont' even think he intended to hit him. That's baseball: accidents happen. Guys get hit with balls thrown at 90 mph, bats get thrown/broken, bad hops/line drives come back at someone... you can't NOT take action out of fear of that. That being said, someone said earlier that Tracy was asked to bean since he was being demoted anyway. I'm sure Ozzie was just pissed because he had to use someone else (tonight) to continue the war and end up being suspended. Makes sense to me. I mean, I do think Ozzie was wrong, but the outcry over this is silly. If Tracy had done his job, this isn't talked about.

And therin lies the problem. Then we end up with more Jim Lefebre's, Jim Frey's and Don Baylors.

I'm game. So when Steve Kline suggest that Mark Prior get hit by one, it's wrong, and it's okay for two of us to say it. I'm becoming less and less proud to be a Cub fan with comments lke this. There's a 4-page thread on Ozzie Guillen, a manager with a World Series ring and a competitive team this year, and it's all negative. So many "real" Cub fans talk about how obsessed with the Cubs Sox fans are, and how they're fickle, and don't exist. Judging by this section of the board and half the people that are/were Cub "fans," many of us aren't too far from that either. I feel like making some of you feel like that Sox pitcher last night. Grow up. I find it real tough to criticize a manager who just brought a World Series to a town where our manager does nothing but underachieve and make excuses. Yes, it was wrong, but how many of you wouldn't trade Guillen for Baker?

Phew!!! That's no friend, either! :P

I wouldn't do that, because some sources claim that Grimsley also points to Derrek Lee using HGH. If this is true i'm just going to cry. :cry: Whah?! I haven't heard that, and I don't think that's true.

Again I shall ask -- what could Pujols say to prove to you that he is innocent? Pujols can't possibly have time to comment to the media. Cubbie Rich demanded that he see his birth certificate, so Pujols has to go find it, and present it to him. Then, internet posters can claim its a fake or was obtained through an illegal connection. Pujols, Sweeney, and Mihlfield can't win here. If they say they didn't do it, then we'll all call them liars (see: Sosa, McGwire, Bonds). And coming out and admitting it isn't exactly smart (like using was). It's a shame baseball has gone to that level. Any accusation - no matter the strength, source or lack of leagal measures - is enough to convict any ballplayer of steroid use.

Oh, and Grimsley's brother runs a supplement/drug store. Better connection? Olberman is doing a story with an interview (didn't mention with whom) tonight on countdown.

Was Greg Anderson convicted of anything? I don't remember exactly what happened with him. Mihlfield hasn't been convicted of a thing, and isn't mentioned in the affidavit. He trained Grimsley, but Grimsley could have gotten drugs anywhere. Sure, It could have been Mihlfield, and I wouldn't be suprised, but that doesn't necessarily convict the guy, either.

It's sad that we have no way to believe anyone. MLB needs HGH testing now! Dan Patrick/Keith Olberman also just mentioned something else: Milfield (trainer) was also Pujols' college baseball coach, who got him his scholarship there. Milfield's sister describes the two of them as "soulbrothers." Also mentioned an SI article where Pujols mentioned contacting Milfield the day after the Cards got beat by the Stros to get training again. Again, we're just speculating, but just thought I'd give more information that I heard. I'm not a Cards/Pujols apologist at all, as some defending Pujols and actually using reason have been accused of. All gossip, at this point.

Good point. I hadn't thought of it that way. Conversely, I think the more information we have about somebody, the more easliy information can be manipulated to support any story. Dig enough, and a little fragment story can be an overblown "ah-ha." I think we did that with Sammy. Then his bat blew up. :oops: Pujols was on a Bonds-HR pace for the first 7 weeks of the season. He's cooled off since then, and has obviously been injured. I'd be shocked if he hit 70+ if healthy. However, his HR totals have been steadily climbing, and he's entering his prime now. It doesn't seem far fetched that he could be a truly great hitter and actually be doing it cleanly.

Well said, Gus. People have rights, and I don't think we should be assuming people are guilty without much evidence. Sadly, baseball players haven't been honest in the past, which shows a pattern of rumor, then denial, then spin, then actual evidence, and finally a "conviction" in the court of public opinion. As much as I want to abide by that pattern, as logic suggests what will happen next, I can't jump to conclusions here, as lots of people (including myself) due when it comes to steriods. I may have blinders on. I was hoping Lee-Pujols was going to become the "Sandberg-Smith" of the 2000's. Our rivalry seems so much better with big name players. :cry:

Aren't we starting to play "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" here, except with steroid users? It seems like the dirty, cheating trainers, players and suppliers can be linked to most ball players. The media (and me!) have been salivating over those blacked out names all day, and any connection to a big name is going to be overblown. Just because a guy who trained Pujols seven years ago gave another guy the name of a steroid supplier doesn't exactly suggest Pujols used. Is it possible? Sure, but by those standards, so is nearly every other big leaguer. I'd love to see the Cards or Sox take a fall just like anyone. (Didn't Jeff Nelson and Jim Thome sound suspiciously defensive yesterday after the news that Grimsley name-dropped came out?) But making reckless accusations without rock-solid evidence is going to lessen the significance when we actually find that evidence on a player. Let's not cry wolf. There's smoke everywhere in MLB, too. Does that mean everything's on fire? And if there is any evidence that Lee/Pujols/Manny/Ortiz/Jeter/Clemens used, it would be terrible for baseball. Those 6 are the poster kids for what's "good" in baseball, and it would do irreperable damage.

:lol: